the skeptics yeast thread...for skeptics by skeptics

[Cobbystock]

Well said Megs. Whether it's Candida or not the CAD diet works for me & so I'll continue with it.

[Trying2]

Not2late - That was beautifully said.

[2big4mysize]

If that title had appeared on the Atkins board section and it was saying Atkins was a load of crap you can just imagine the replies it would have generated with most likely this topic being locked if not deleted and the poster warned along with all the repliers who violated the TOS in name calling.

2big, although I have know and loved you for many years, I hope that you are wrong. If someone came on this board and said Atkins was a bunch of crap, which they have, I hope that we as a community could give them their say and not lock it. Some kids do come on and say stuff which does get deleted because we know they are doing it just to get a rise out of us and don't really know what they are talking about.
But this is different. Nurselady, Pepples and now brats are saying that yeast may not be the end all cure all. What is the problem with having this discussion. ........

I think you missed what I was saying Lynne and Pammie. it was the title change that generated the heat. it occurred just after SKinnySoon's aplologetic poston the fist day. SO those responding beyond that point until last night were reponding to a topic that on their screens said

Candida (Yeast) & Atkins Low Carb You are being feed a load of crap.....

Since many of the ADBB folk who have used the Anti Candida program have posted on the board about that they could and did infer they were being accused of posting crap. That caused them to get angry just as it would all members of this board seeing it on the Atkins diet part.

Lynne we have had those topics and the replies got heated and personel and every one of those topics in which the original poster hung around in to reply with their view about atkins being a load of crap since I've been here has not been an inteligent exchange of information of Atkins pro and con by most of the repliers, but mostly very angry ADBB folk and mod warnings injected into it with posts edited and deleted.

I'm sure Lynne you remember the sugar alcohol FAQ getting locked and a bunch of posts getting edited and deleted OCT 2003 for just that reason.

had this topic gone up with the title it currently has it would have been perceived differently by the angry pro candida repliers and they would have kept it much more of an intellectual level. As it was I think the posters used restraint and no name calling was edited by mods on either side.

[Heidi3]

LESSON LEARNED GUYS!!! From now on my titles will be much clearer it was a very sad attempt at humor ....SORRY FOR ANY HURT FEELINGS IT WAS NEVER MY INTENT TO LAUGH AT YOU!!! I am sorry if you are suffering and happy if this yeast free lifestyle is working for you...and plan to continue to be skeptical and continue to have a sense of humor but I will clarify the content in my titles so if you do not like what the discussion is you can avoid the topic!!! OK?....Just know there are people out there that do want to talk about things differently than you do and will continue to ...we do not need to be left out because we are skeptical!!..and that having a sense of humor is a healthy thing ...laughter is good medicine.....I am going to read some of the stuff that was offered...I will also post some stuff I have that disputes the yeast theories so if you do not like the direction this is going in ...do not keep reading it!!!...no hard feelings on this side! :hug :hug :hug [/b]

[Heidi3]

\

it is amazing to me that I can pick the same list of syptoms....and apply it not only to ...yeast, but to PCOS, to hypothyroid, chronic fatigue, mitro valve prolapse, eating carbs, food allergies, environmental sensitivities....The list goes on.....
Sometimes I think I could write a book, make lots of money, go on talk shows complain that western medicine is out to get me and if we all would just do what I say to do then you would be cured from everything but what is really going on!....to be honest....I am honest and could never go through life getting paid to lie....and make things up to pad my pockets....


1: N Engl J Med. 1990 Dec 20;323(25):1717-23. Related Articles, Links


Comment in:
N Engl J Med. 1990 Dec 20;323(25):1766-7.
N Engl J Med. 1991 May 30;324(22):1592-4.

A randomized, double-blind trial of nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome.

Dismukes WE, Wade JS, Lee JY, Dockery BK, Hain JD.

Department of Medicine, University of Alabama, School of Medicine, Birmingham.

BACKGROUND. Candida albicans infection has been proposed to cause a chronic hypersensitivity syndrome characterized by fatigue, premenstrual tension, gastrointestinal symptoms, and depression. Long-term antifungal therapy has been advocated as treatment for the syndrome, which is most often diagnosed in women with persistent or recurrent candida vaginitis. METHODS. To determine the efficacy of nystatin therapy for presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome, we conducted a 32-week randomized, double-blind, cross-over study using four different combinations of nystatin or placebo given orally or vaginally in 42 premenopausal women who met present criteria for the syndrome and had a history of candida vaginitis. The outcomes studied were the changes from base line in scores for vaginal, systemic, and overall symptoms and in the results of standardized psychological tests. RESULTS. The three active-treatment regimens (oral and vaginal nystatin, oral nystatin and vaginal placebo, and oral placebo and vaginal nystatin) and the all-placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms (P less than 0.001), but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo. On average, the scores for systemic symptoms improved 25 percent with the three active-treatment regimens and 23 percent with the all-placebo regimen, a difference of only 2 percent (95 percent confidence interval, -3 to 7 percent). As expected, the three active-treatment regimens were more effective than placebo in relieving vaginal symptoms (P less than 0.001). All four regimens reduced psychological symptoms and global indexes of distress; there were no significant differences among the treatment regimens. CONCLUSIONS. In women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome, nystatin does not reduce systemic or psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo. Consequently, the empirical recommendation of long-term nystatin therapy for such women appears to be unwarranted.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

[2big4mysize]

Looked very well run study until the conclusion pointed out the flaw in the study groups in that study

presumed candidiasis

it would be clearer if the study had been done on those who had tested positive on the blood tests and bowel tests for actual candidiasism. If you offer a hypochondriac a placebo miracle cure for something they will cure that something but still have other percieved ailments.

For folks who test positive for the symptoms and the actual blood and bowel tests comeback positive then this would be a good study to see if the antifungal treatments would work as you can have a vaginal or skin yeast infection without having interal systemic infection.

[Pebbbles]

Looked very well run study until the conclusion pointed out the flaw in the study groups in that study

presumed candidiasis

it would be clearer if the study had been done on those who had tested positive on the blood tests and bowel tests for actual candidiasism. If you offer a hypochondriac a placebo miracle cure for something they will cure that something but still have other percieved ailments.

For folks who test positive for the symptoms and the actual blood and bowel tests comeback positive then this would be a good study to see if the antifungal treatments would work as you can have a vaginal or skin yeast infection without having interal systemic infection.

I am just curious, is there data indicating how many people actually have tested positive for "overgrowth" through bowel and blood tests?

[Heidi3]

Looked very well run study until the conclusion pointed out the flaw in the study groups in that study

presumed candidiasis

it would be clearer if the study had been done on those who had tested positive on the blood tests and bowel tests for actual candidiasism. If you offer a hypochondriac a placebo miracle cure for something they will cure that something but still have other percieved ailments.

For folks who test positive for the symptoms and the actual blood and bowel tests comeback positive then this would be a good study to see if the antifungal treatments would work as you can have a vaginal or skin yeast infection without having interal systemic infection.

when I see this in the clinic and see the lab slip for myself ...on someone other than an immune suppressed individual ...then they have their symptoms resolved by yeast free diet....then I will believe it....how is that?
Right now all I am seeing is all the symptoms you mention and I see them diagnosed as some of the following
1. PCOS (and do not get me started....it is real...just way over diagnosed lately)
2. MVP mitral valve prolapse (another favorite catch all for the exact symptoms your yeast issue covers look it up)
3. Chronic Fatigue Syndrom (has faded recently with the onset of PCOS but still prevelent)

Oh there are more but it all boils down to we have a chronic sick population of mostly women who are for some reason exhibiting the same symptoms. It is horrible to be a nurse and see some one given a diagnosis because there are no other answers. I feel I can step back and say ..it has a **** of a lot to do with what we eat...and be safe in that.....now do I think getting yeast out of the diet is the answer....nope...but if it makes you feel better to think that ...go for it!

[not2late]

I am just curious, is there data indicating how many people actually have tested positive for "overgrowth" through bowel and blood tests?

Colonisation of extragenital sites by Candida in women with recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis. BJOG 2003 Oct;110(10):934-7 (ISSN: 1470-032
Mardh PA; Novikova N; Stukalova E
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Hospital and Lund University, Lund, Sweden.
OBJECTIVES: To study colonisation of extragenital sites by Candida in women with a history of recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis and to determine the association of such colonisation with clothing and sexual practice. DESIGN: A prospective case-control (current genital colonisation by candida organisms vs non-colonisation) study. SETTING: Outpatient clinic, University hospital, Kiev, Ukraine and Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University Hospital, Lund, Sweden. SAMPLE: Women with a history of recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis and an assumed new attack of the condition. METHODS: Eighty-six women with a history of recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis and an assumed current attack of this condition underwent culture for Candida from the genital tract, the perianal skin, the rectum, the mouth and from voided urine samples, using Sabouraud and chromogenic agar. The women were interviewed about some factors that have been considered to trigger colonisation with Candida spp. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Colonisation of extragenital sites of women with recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis by different species of Candida. Correlation with oral and anal sex, and with clothing. RESULTS: Candida spp. was isolated from the mouth, the rectum, the perianal skin and from voided urine in 11(13%), 24(28%), 35(41%) and 16(19%) of women, respectively. Candida was recovered from one or more of these sites in 44(51%) of the women. The rate of culture of Candida from the extragenital sites was significantly higher (P < 0.05) in women who had a positive culture from the introitus or the vagina. The recovery rates of Candida in the 46 vaginal culture-positive women were 8 (17%), 24 (52%), 34 (74%) and 16 (35%) from the extragenital sites in the order mentioned. Species of Candida other than Candida albicans occurred more often at the extragenital than the genital sites. Neither oral nor anal sex was associated with colonisation of the mouth and the rectum with Candida spp. Neither tight-fitting trousers nor underwear produced from synthetic material was associated with colonisation of the perianal skin with Candida spp. CONCLUSIONS: Extragenital sites are often colonised by Candida spp. in women with a history of recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis, but significantly more often if the genital tract is also colonised. Extragenital sites are significantly more commonly colonised with species other than C. albicans. Extragenital sites may be reservoirs for recolonisation of the genital tract in women with recurrent vulvovaginal candidosis. This has implications for treatment.

Colonization of Candida albicans in vagina, rectum, and mouth.
J Fam Pract 1983 May;16(5):919-24 (ISSN: 0094-3509)
Bertholf ME; Stafford MJ
To better understand the frequency of appearance, the density of growth, and the most common sites in which female patients harbor Candida albicans, a study was initiated of all patients receiving a pelvic examination for any reason at a solo family practice office. From February 1980 to November 1981, 341 pelvic examinations were accompanied by cultures and colony counts of the vagina, rectum, and mouth. A semiquantitative method adapted to Microstix-Candida (Ames Company) was utilized. Only 39 percent of all examinations had negative cultures in all three sites. Twenty-three percent of the positive cultures for C albicans were found from the vagina, 41 percent from the rectum, and 34 percent from the mouth. Incidence of colonization in any site did not vary significantly from 16 to 75 years of age. Negative rectal colonization was associated with lower vaginal colony counts and less frequent vaginal symptomatology. Relatively high vaginal colony count was associated with symptomatic vaginal candidiasis.


Vaginal candidiasis and the role of the digestive tract as a source of infection.Br J Obstet Gynaecol 1975 Nov;82(11):922-6 (ISSN: 0306-5456)
Hilton AL; Warnock DW
Of 300 female patients seen in a Venereal Diseases clinic, 84 (28-0 per cent) were found to be harbouring Candida albicans or C. parapsilosis in the genital tract and 33 per cent of these patients had clinical signs of vulvovaginitis. Of the 84 patients, 71-4 per cent harboured yeasts in the ano-rectal tract; of the remaining 216 patients, 25-9 per cent harboured yeasts in the ano-rectal tract. There was no evidence to suggest that the incidence of yeasts in the mouth, ano-rectal or genital tracts changed with age or use of oral contraception.

The rectal carriage of yeast in patients with vaginal candidiasis. Clin Invest Med 1994 Oct;17(5):426-31 (ISSN: 0147-958X)
Fong IW
Department of Medicine, St. Michael's Hospital, University of Toronto, Ontario.
Reinfection from the lower gastrointestinal tract is a possible source of recurrent vulvo-vaginal candidiasis. A prospective study to assess the prevalence of yeast carriage in various orifices (including the rectum) in controls and patients, and the relationship to acute vaginitis, was conducted. Cultures for yeast were obtained from the mouth, rectum, vulva, and vagina every 1-2 months for 1 y from the patients. The prevalence of yeast carriage in healthy controls was 3/37 (8.1%) from the vulva, vagina, and rectum, and 4/37 (10.8%) from the mouth. In patients, yeast carriage during episodes of vaginitis was: from the vagina, 190/193 (98.4%); from the vulva, 107/193 (55.4%); from the rectum, 93/193 (48.2%); and from the mouth, 52/193 (26.9%). During visits without vaginitis, yeast carriage was lower: in the rectum, 59/587 (10.1%); in the vulva, 53/459 (11.6%); in the vagina, 77/587 (13.1%); and in the mouth, 89/587 (15.2%). Yeast in the lower bowel during symptomatic vaginitis is higher (p = 0.0001) than in controls, but not significantly greater during asymptomatic periods. Recurrence of Candida vaginitis is not dependent on yeast reservoir in the lower gut between symptomatic episodes.

[2big4mysize]

...now do I think getting yeast out of the diet is the answer....nope...but if it makes you feel better to think that ...go for it

I think you are missing thepoint of the clease it isn't about getting yeast out of the diet anymore then Atkins is about getting carbs out of the diet. it is about getting the excess Candida yeast out of their system by controlling the intake of potentioal yeast contaminantes while changing their intestinal tract back to a healthy population of bacteria. Then just like Atkins after the initial cleanse they can and do reintroduces the foods they had to remove in a controlled manner and if Like Atkins OWL a food or food group gives them problems they drop it and reclean just like we drop back to inductionlevel carbs to get out ketosis going again. Of course some are so happy in the clease state they just stay there and don't move just as we have seen folk here going from start to goal on induction.

Pebbles I don't know how many confirmed folk there are out there but on ADBB I can introduce you to our very own lab test confirmed candida systemic infected slow loser BeckySue. She has a topic up in the yeast forum sharing her story you can check out.

Most like Missy90 just developed symptoms after a course of antibiotics and knew it was yeast. they did the program got better and resummed their Atkins, happy losers again.

[Heidi3]

Ok I need ritalin to read all that ...just give me some time to digest the upper level spew!!!.....at least the one article I gave you I sifted through to find one that was easy to read so most of us here could just read it and say "oh yeah well that is crap" or not... ...your stuff is too much ...come on...I will read it but it is not going to be fun ...

[missy90]

I've been gone for a few days and just came back and I'm sitting here just AMAZED at all this going on here about candida and my "innocent post" of a few weeks ago; about my experience with yeast and how doing a CAD has entirely changed my health, energy levels, thinking processes being clearer, not to mention getting over being bloated everyday of my life; even over a glass of water. It was a blessing to find the information I acquired; like Skinny; on this topic. I reached out immediately to my friends that had common health problems and weight stalls and they had the same results as me.
SO; I thought I would share it with my firends I have known here on the board for close to 2 years now, especially after reading the endless posts of weight stalls and bloating.....I had NO idea it would blossom into its own topic here on the board; BUT to have it scrutinized and debated has really thrown me for a loop. Like this Candida problem was somehow a scam to hurt others...come on NurseLady...get real here. This yeast has been overlooked for years by doctors; and medications prescribed for conditions that never healed or improved due to the yeast. The book The Yeast Connection has been around for quite awhile and doctors have been turning a deaf ear to it's existance. Believe me...it exsists in close to 80% of the population. The meds were just a huge bandaid to line doctors and phamacutical companies pockets, to so call "help" patients with their different ailments brought on by the yeast. I totally agree with all Skinny has said here on this thread ;because like her; I too have searched this topic for hours on end. I have seen the positve results in not only myself, but my family and friends. It has been a Godsend to me and I hope all of you out there with different health problems will hang in there; as I'm sure you ; too; will see positive results and a healthier body and mind! :hug

Take care and smile and Happy Holidays to all!
Missy :wave

[Pebbbles]

Missy, where is the evidence that over 80% of the population has a candida overgrowth problem? Please give me your source. And do you really believe that the majority of physicians really don't care about their patients' wellbeing, and would rather have their pockets "lined" with money?

Our bodies are efficient machines, I refuse to believe that 80% of us are not functioning as we should be, and that our bodies are allowing this supposed abnormality. It just is not logical.

Being in the health care industry, I know it's not a perfect system. But I do know that doctor's are human beings and the majority of them truly would do anything in their power to help their patients.

[missy90]

It's in the Atkin's book.

[mapasone]

Book

If you want in the book of Dr.Atkins New Diet Revolution go to pages 503-527 and get all the references on all subjects!