Where is that weight loss coming from?

[xven]

Hi. Just had one concern while following this diet that I would like addressed by anyone who has been through it.

Having read quite a few posts about people losing a good amount of weight while in induction, I must ask d you know where the weight is coming of off? It's a given that you lose water weight, as carbs retain water in the body. However, I must ask, is majority weight coming off from fat or muscle? The reason is just following a few days into this diet, I can very well tell I have lost a major amount of muscle. Even though my protein intake is kept very high, I'm having a hard time keeping muscle. I am mainly doing this diet for the ketogenic benefit, which can be attained even if I kept my carbs at less than 65-110. But in turn, I don't want to end up losing weight by ridding muscle instead of lowering actual bodyfat. Also, would getting my carb intake up to 30 for induction work in almost the same effect as the 20 mark? Kind of need it around that amount to get even a bit close to having my daily requirement of fiber.

So, it comes down to: If anyone actually checked, did you actually lose body fat, or muscle? Answers, comments, concerns? Thanks, I appreciate anyone taking time to fill this one out.

[2big4mysize]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

You do not lose muscle tissue doing atkins you may lose the glycogen stores in your muscles along with the fluid stored with them but the muscle tissue isn't burned doing Atkins. SO if you had your muscles pumped full of glycogen then they will be losing volume but not tissue. With 30% of your daily calories coming from protein it will be hard to lose muscle tissue unless you are under eating your Atkins.

Fiber is subtracted from the carbs you eat to give you the 20 net carbs you are limited too. we only do the very strict Atkins induction for 14 days then you move to OWL and add carbs back in a prescribed manner 5 net carbs at a time until you fiond your CCLL.


There are several studies out there you can read in the Atkins research lib http://www.atkins.com/research-libra...20Loss/Obesity
that actually measures the lean body tissue gain with fat body mass loss on Atkins. UConn did one on normal weight fellows and had them eat maintnenance levles and they lost body fat and gained lean tissue mass.

[Kent]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

My LBM weight did go down during the diet. Around the time I started this diet my Lean Body Mass was over 260 pounds according to BF% of 41%. I obviously don't weight that now even.

There that said, my BF% percentage dropped much faster than the LBM, which includes water weight in all the muscles, connective tissues, etc. as well as muscle fibers. According to BF% numbers, I lost at least 164 pounds of fat tissues out of total loss 190 pounds. My body simply does not have to drag 400# pounds of humanity around each day (in and out of cars, upstairs, walk where I can). It was inevitable that I would lose some muscle ability. I will say this though. I have counteracted this by increasing my weight lifting all the way down and would urge you to do the same.

Gauge the loss of muscle by activity performance rather than simply a number equation. My running times have dropped from astronomical to 7.5 minute/miles, and I am lifting (bench, curls, presses) as much as I ever have. If you think you are losing real muscle mass (not just the water from glycogen), there is only one agent of recourse - additional exercise. The proteins you eat prevent you consuming your muscles for amino acids.

[2big4mysize]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

there is a very big difference from muslce tissue loss and muscle strngth loss too.

Also leanbody mass is everything other then fat not just musles and water and connective tissues Did you know if you are 25 pounds over weight you have nearly 5,000 extra miles of blood vessels through which your heart must pump blood those are going to not be needed any more too ans will result in the loss of lean body tissue as they are reabsorbed too. then there is some skin loss too so all of that is part og the lean body mass losted. The Veterans hospital did a study on overweight vwets doing low carb abd high carb and found that 75% of that was lost on high carb was body fat and what was lost on low carb was 80 % body fat. they also discovered surprizingly to them that their low carb losers added muscle mass.

[xven]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

Wow. Those are some very insightful and well thought out responses. Thank you very much. I know that all 'diets' as such do have a somewhat catabolic nature, just needed to know how if muscle loss would be big or minimal. Well, that has been answered so far.

You do not lose muscle tissue doing atkins you may lose the glycogen stores in your muscles along with the fluid stored with them but the muscle tissue isn't burned doing Atkins. SO if you had your muscles pumped full of glycogen then they will be losing volume but not tissue.

This holds a lot of truth. Guess I overlooked this possibilty and dreaded that I was actually losing all that much muscle.

I have counteracted this by increasing my weight lifting all the way down and would urge you to do the same.

I don't mean to sound the least bit whiny here, but omg, it I find it almost impossible to train. My performance has dropped substantially. I find myself drawing every last breath to lift something I could easy do before. I get tired quicker, and overall just flat out lethargic. I used to leave the gym feeling absolutely great, now I feel like I killed myself in there.

Just a quick question about cardio while on this diet, though. We all know cardio or high intensity training dips into your carbohydrate reserves, and opposingly low intensity, aerobic training gets into glycogen / fat. If I did cardio, now hypothetically since I have almost no carbs, is the next thing it prefers to go for is muscle/protein, as that is the second thing your body will attack to substitute the deficiency of carbs. So in conclusion, is it advisible to keep high intensity workouts at a minimum. Also, I find that I just don't have the strength to keep them up.

The Veterans hospital did a study on overweight vwets doing low carb abd high carb and found that 75% of that was lost on high carb was body fat and what was lost on low carb was 80 % body fat. they also discovered surprizingly to them that their low carb losers added muscle mass.

Pure 100% bull. I beg to differ. Sorry, but logic makes me think otherwise. It is nearly impossible to "gain" muscle without training or working them out in anyway. I find it hard to believe that a bunch of sedentary veterans in a hosipital, magicallly increased their lbm by just eating and no working out. Rest assure, they lost the fat mass, but a gain in lbm? No way.

Oh and btw, congrats to the both of you on losing so much weight! Truly inspirational, well done.

[Kent]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

I don't mean to sound the least bit whiny here, but omg, it I find it almost impossible to train. My performance has dropped substantially. I find myself drawing every last breath to lift something I could easy do before. I get tired quicker, and overall just flat out lethargic. I used to leave the gym feeling absolutely great, now I feel like I killed myself in there.

Are you still within the first 14 days? I felt very much the same during that period, and I attribute most of it to Induction flu. Your body is switching how it achieves fuel primarily from an easy quick source to a longer to ignite (at first) source in fat. Your body gets used to it, and the conversion process is a lot easier and keeps up much better. During the first month, I did what I could for exercise, but it was certainly a gradual process. You also have to remember you are also probably dealing with a loss of quick recovery and/or comfort foods. If you are still within the first 14 days, trust me it gets better, and perhaps just focus on getting the eating correct. If you are outside the first 14 or 30 days, I might have other recommendations depenind on your stats if this fatigue continues (Vitanutrients, and perhaps moving on to OWL).

Just a quick question about cardio while on this diet, though. We all know cardio or high intensity training dips into your carbohydrate reserves, and opposingly low intensity, aerobic training gets into glycogen / fat. If I did cardio, now hypothetically since I have almost no carbs, is the next thing it prefers to go for is muscle/protein, as that is the second thing your body will attack to substitute the deficiency of carbs. So in conclusion, is it advisible to keep high intensity workouts at a minimum. Also, I find that I just don't have the strength to keep them up.

I do cardio all the time in long prolong periods (2-4 hour aerobic bike rides last year or long runs this year). The body on a ketogenic diet will consume fat first and then start converting the excess protein in the blood for energy. If you are in starvation mode (typically consuming less Calories than your BMR for a prolonged period), your body may choose eat muscle for energy, but that is not doing the Diet as prescribed. Contrary to cultural myths, the carbs aren't necessary for long term cardio. We have numerous runners (marathonners and 10k'ers) and bikers to prove otherwise. If you need studies to demonstrate it, check the memorable posts forum -- a number of the links have been posted in there as well.

[2big4mysize]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

The Veterans hospital did a study on overweight vwets doing low carb abd high carb and found that 75% of that was lost on high carb was body fat and what was lost on low carb was 80 % body fat. they also discovered surprizingly to them that their low carb losers added muscle mass. Pure 100% bull. I beg to differ. Sorry, but logic makes me think otherwise. It is nearly impossible to "gain" muscle without training or working them out in anyway. I find it hard to believe that a bunch of sedentary veterans in a hosipital, magicallly increased their lbm by just eating and no working out. Rest assure, they lost the fat mass, but a gain in lbm? No way.

Oh and btw, congrats to the both of you on losing so much weight! Truly inspirational, well done.

Check out the UCONN study of nonexercising normal weigh fellows converting just to Atkins eating. they lost fat mass and gained muscle mass.

go do some research on what the human body does with excess proteins IE more protein then needed for cellular repair. it stuffs them as amino acids ( I think lifters call those free pool) into muscles and organs for storage for later use. once all the stuffing places are full it then breaks them down into sugars for storage as fat (yep there is a carbon backbone in every fat molecule and amonia wastes

if you just started Atkins you need to build your body up with the

[2big4mysize]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

The Veterans hospital did a study on overweight vwets doing low carb abd high carb and found that 75% of that was lost on high carb was body fat and what was lost on low carb was 80 % body fat. they also discovered surprizingly to them that their low carb losers added muscle mass. Pure 100% bull. I beg to differ. Sorry, but logic makes me think otherwise. It is nearly impossible to "gain" muscle without training or working them out in anyway. I find it hard to believe that a bunch of sedentary veterans in a hosipital, magicallly increased their lbm by just eating and no working out. Rest assure, they lost the fat mass, but a gain in lbm? No way.

Oh and btw, congrats to the both of you on losing so much weight! Truly inspirational, well done.

Check out the UCONN study of nonexercising normal weigh fellows converting just to Atkins eating. they lost fat mass and gained muscle mass.

go do some research on what the human body does with excess proteins IE more protein then needed for cellular repair. it stuffs them as amino acids ( I think lifters call those free pool) into muscles and organs for storage for later use. once all the stuffing places are full it then breaks them down into sugars for storage as fat (yep there is a carbon backbone in every fat molecule and amonia wastes

if you just started Atkins you need to build your body up with the enzymes and carrier molecluse needed to move the fat molecules from your fat stores to the places they will be broken down dutring beta oxidation and later in the 2 carbon phase of carbohydrate burning system.
Many new to Atkins folk seem to beneifet from the supplements Dr Atkins discusses like L-Carnitine which will move the molecules across the mitochondria membranes.

many runners hit the wall when their bodies don't switch from sugar burning to fat burning and that is what you have done. You will find as your body adjusts to the Atkins you will have more energy for doing those same workouts.

The human body does not care where the phosphogen molecules comefrom it just wants to break them to release the energy it needs and you will discover you get more ATP molecules produced carbon for carbon in fats then you do carbohydrates. it take several moles of ATP energy to turn proteins into sugar during liver glucogenises more enrgy then even repairingf the glucose by products and the glycogen molecule from the fats so burning proteins for fuel by breaking down your muscle tissues is the bodies very last resort for fuel.

When they discuss cardio the intensity levels are sprinters speed which the human body sugar burning fuel system has a limit of about a 440 yard race then all the stored phosphogen and glucose energy is all gone and they body needs to generate more fuel for those muscles and switch fueling systems from sugars to fatty acids and needs to generate chemicals to do so quickly. BUt at a marathon runners speed the muscles can keep going and going cause they are already quickly switching to burning fatty acids their bodies have stored in the muscles while the call goes out for more fatty acids to keep burning long before they exhaust their supply of phosphogen and glucose energy. you can do lots of cardio workouts at pretty intense speeds compared to somebody not in shape, just not at a sprinters speed for long distances.

Happy low carbing

[sofarsogood]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

Hi. I have a body fat, water scale and I weighed myself before I started atkins and I was 177 pounds with 31% body fat and 47.9% water weight. Now after 14 days I weigh 161 pounds with 26% body fat and 53% water weight. I weighed myself first thing in the morning each time. Also, I notice that the weight is coming off my face, neck, and stomach. My stomach seems be where I have the most fat. Why do you feel like you are losing muscle?

[xven]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

Well, that pretty much settled it then. I'm sticking with the diet. You people have given me enough facts and support to get going with this. Thanks and good luck.

Are you still within the first 14 days?

Yup

nce all the stuffing places are full it then breaks them down into sugars for storage as fat

Aware of that. Broken down in the liver and used where needed, the excess, is turned into glucose. Regardless, I refuse to believe that you actually "gain" muscle mass without training. Sure you can help revive earlier muscle by a bit, but other than that, not a chance. That study is nonsense.

[2big4mysize]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

can yio post some scientific preer reviewed studies to support your posistion cause i sure sould love to see them animals rasied for food pack on muscle mass without exercise all the time

[SugarFreeSheila]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

While on Atkins, I gained (with walking and resistance training) muscle and lost (through low-carbing) body fat. However, of course in the first couple of weeks on the program, I'm almost certain that 100% of that was water. For me at the time, weight was weight, and I was thrilled by it!

P.S: Here is a scan of my 2004 and 2005 body fat readings. (I lost the weight in 2001.) Both readings are done via hydrostatic/underwater weighing at the Dallas Cooper Clinic. While I did not have a reading done prior to Atkins, I can guarantee that my body fat wasn't 13-14% when I was 140+ pounds & a tight size 10 at barely 5'3".

[xven]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

can yio post some scientific preer reviewed studies to support your posistion cause i sure sould love to see them animals rasied for food pack on muscle mass without exercise all the time

Your on! I'll skirt around for any studies conducted tomorrow, but I'll leave saying this: animals - humans, aren't equal. Animals have a very different metabolism/diet than humans. It would be quite stupid to base evidence of this on how an animal reacted to the study. Though it might be something along the lines of what is expected to outcome on a human, it's nowhere near certainty.

While on Atkins, I gained (with walking and resistance training) muscle andlost (through low-carbing) body fat. However, of course in the first couple of weeks on the program, I'm almost certain that 100% of that was water. For me at the time, weight was weight, and I was thrilled by it!

After reading up a couple of articles it does hold truth. Checked out my weight today and it's dropped 9 pounds. You'd think that's great, but that much in 6 days .. you know something isn't right. Hopefully, and more likely that is water weight. I've kept to eating 2700 calories a day and even going a bit over sometimes, and this is maintainence for me, yet such a drastic weight loss scares me. To cut is short, I look like half the man I was. But the **** with it, I'm looking to lower body fat and if my muscle gets eaten into for a while I'll just have to suck it up for now. Thanks for all the reassurance again. If I didn't have you people back this up for me before I saw my weight today, I would have left the diet high and dry.

[Brook]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

I'll skirt around for any studies conducted tomorrow, but I'll leave saying this: animals - humans, aren't equal. Animals have a very different metabolism/diet than humans. It would be quite stupid to base evidence of this on how an animal reacted to the study. Though it might be something along the lines of what is expected to outcome on a human, it's nowhere near certainty.

Humans *are* animals. That aside, if you find basing evidence of how animals react on various studies stupid comparisons I'd be loathe to take meds, vitamins, minerals or anything else were I in your shoes. Those studies started out on the animals you think it's stupid to base evidence on.

As for certainty? There are only two things that are certain when it comes to being human: Death and taxes.

Everything else is highly debatable -as you can well see here There are no norms from person to person. Even human metabolism varies greatly from person to person- and while their are some constants, there are no certainties.

As for your quick 6lbs, almost all macronutrient restrictions (diets in whatever form) produce a diuretic effect, as Sheila pointed out. You've experienced this. Studies I've read talk about the body canabolizing no more than 1-3oz of muscle tissue a day for energy conversions in an "emergency" state - so even if you were losing muscle mass, which I find *extremely* doubtful in a 2700 calorie a day feed, you'd be looking at a max of 2.6lbs over a period of 14 days. I find that highly improbable, and it has certainly not been my own personal experience or the experience of low-carbers I know (and I know a *lot* of these buggers ).

I'll be watching to see what you come up with, xven. It should be interesting. You've had some interesting ideas about diet and exercise up to this point that you've come to us to help you out on, so this should be no less interesting and educational for all

I wish you success
~Brook

[2big4mysize]

Re: Where is that weight loss coming from?

still waiting for those studies