Nay sayers

[yanto]

Just stumbled accross this website whilst looking for Atkins info. Not read it all but what i have read is a little concerning. Has anyone else read what these people are saying, is any of it valid? Atkins Facts - Atkins "Nightmare" Diet

[yanto]

Re: Nay sayers

oops! My apologies, just noticed there is a current thread running on this already. Mods, please feel free to delete this one.http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.c...ng-atkins.html

[cookiecate]

Re: Nay sayers

My husband was diagnosed as having type 2 diabetes around three years ago. His cholesterol was high, his blood pressure was high and the glucose levels in his blood were very very high.

He was given all kinds of information on how to eat healthily. There was literature from the British Heart Foundation and a government booklet. All of this information surrounded low fat eating.

Luckily years ago I had a friend who had lost lots of weight eating the Atkins way. I got the ANDR and we read it together.

We liked the fact that all food that my husband loved was available to him. He was desperate and constantly felt hungry when eating low fat. Often he would throw in the towel and binge on sugar, high carb snacks even yogurt because that was allowed when you ate low fat. His appetite was enormous and it was impossible to satisfy his constant hunger.

As you can imagine I got more and more scared, knowing that he was basically killing himself. I loved him dearly and did not want him to die an early death when there was a way of changing everything.

Our induction was difficult hubs could not get the hang of Atkins. He would ask for bread or a baked potato. However, we stuck to it and finally he began to lose weight but more than that his started to get control of his appetite.

Somedays I would have to nag because he hadn't eaten. We couldn't believe that he had forgotten to eat lunch.

Today my husband went to the doctor for his regular check ups and not only has he lost weight but she believes that in a couple of months he will be able to control the diabetes with his excellent diet. She agrees that she is not a fan of Atkins but she cannot argue with the obvious facts.

My dear hubs has lost weight, he cholesterol has lowered and his blood sugars are low to normal. Next time you go to the supermarket just look at the foods that he was advised to eat large amounts of and see how much sugar he would have been eating. He would have been on the medication for the rest of his life and worse he would have very likely got worse and fatter.

For instance there is a cereal which is advertised as a diet food which will enable you to lose weight this cereal is shown to contain as much sugar as a bowl of ice cream.

I don't think you have anything to concern yourself with about what these people are saying. For every one of there negative thoughts we on this board have a thousand positives.

They give people no hope and no answers they just try to fill your head with the same kind of crap that they would feed a sick man.

[Georgiana]

Re: Nay sayers

I'll take the paragraphs in that article one by one.

When Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution was first published, the President of the American College of Nutrition said, "Of all the bizarre diets that have been proposed in the last 50 years, this is the most dangerous to the public if followed for any length of time."[1]

Reference [1] is from a March 1973 issue of The Chronicle, which is not a medical journal. Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution (DADR) was published in 1972, and between 1972 and 1973, there was no study showing that the 1972 plan of the Atkins Diet is dangerous. So the statement made by the President of the American College of Nutrition, is supported by absolutely no evidence. His function alone does not make his personal opinion a true fact.

It often happens in science that new, "bizarre" ideas are being refuted as wrong or dangerous. Dmitri Mendeleev, the guy who came up with the Periodic Table of Elements (see image below, if you need to remember how the table looked like), never acknowledged the existence of radiation or of the electron. A more recent example of "bad science" is the scare surrounding the Large Hadron Collider. Although several studies have shown that there is no danger in running the Collider, there will always be those afraid they'll die swallowed by a black hole (although, personally, if I could choose my way to die, being swallowed by a black hole would be on top of the list ).

The Periodic Table of Elements:

When the chief health officer for the State of Maryland,[2] was asked "What's wrong with the Atkins Diet?" He replied "What's wrong with... taking an overdose of sleeping pills? You are placing your body in jeopardy." He continued "Although you can lose weight on these nutritionally unsound diets, you do so at the risk of your health and even your life."[3]

Reference [2] is from a March 1973 issue of The New York Weekly. As before, you can guess from the title that the reference holds little scientific value.

Reference [3] is a 1974 issue of the Maryland State Medical Journal, but the idea in the article quoted above is taken out of context. This is what the study said:

Acetone and other ketones (part of being in a state of ketosis brought on by following a low-carbohydrate diet) seems to cause brain damage in the fetus which may result in the baby being born mentally retarded.

So, according to this study, "you are placing your body in jeopardy" only if you are doing the weight loss phases of Atkins, while pregnant. While Dr. Atkins did not have a warning in DADR saying that pregnant women and nursing mothers must not follow any of the weight loss phases of Atkins, he changed this in the 2002 plan. From Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution, ed. 2002 (DANDR 2002), Chapter 10, p. 107:

Also, pregnant women and nursing mothers may do the Lifetime Maintenance phase but should not do any of the weight loss phases of Atkins.

I know eating habits in the US are different from those in less developed countries, but in some countries pregnant women do eat an Atkins Maintenance diet while pregnant. I can only give you the example of Romania, where everyone from my grand grandmother to my mom knows that eating sugar and white flour is not healthy, and that consuming natural, minimally-processed foods is much better for one's health in general, not only while pregnant or nursing.

The Chair of Harvard's nutrition department went on record before a 1973 U.S. Senate Select Committee investigating fad diets: "The Atkins Diet is nonsense... Any book that recommends unlimited amounts of meat, butter, and eggs, as this one does, in my opinion is dangerous. The author who makes the suggestion is guilty of malpractice."[4]

Again, no evidence. As he says, it's simply his opinion.

When Dr. Atkins wrote DADR, he did not add the part explaining that calorie are important and gorging on "legal" foods should not be done. In the absence of this explanation, which does appear in DANDR 2002, many people, including the Chair of Harvard's Nutrition Department imagined that Atkins means eating 30 fried eggs for breakfast, a whole cow for lunch and a pork for dinner, plus schmaltz shakes in-between meals. We know this is not true.

The Chair of the American Medical Association's Council on Food and Nutrition testified before the Senate Subcommittee as to why the AMA felt they had to formally publish an official condemnation of the Atkins Diet: "A careful scientific appraisal was carried out by several council and staff members, aided by outside consultants. It became apparent that the [Atkins] diet as recommended poses a serious threat to health."[5]

Reference [5] is rubbish. What should be addressed, imo, is the "official condemnation". I will not discuss everything there, because many things (the metabolic advantage, the water weight loss, etc.) are rebutted by Dr. Atkins in DANDR 2002, with references from scientific journals. What I will discuss are the three claims they make in the section entitled Potential Hazards.

1. A diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol could be responsible for accelerating artherosclerosis.

The two subjects reported on by Tolstoi[25] developed a visible lipemia on their all-meat (low-carbohydrate) diets, and their plasma cholesterol rose to high levels (in one subject up to 800 mg/100 ml).

I won't bother reading Tolstoi's study, but an "all-meat" diet is not Atkins. Besides, two subjects is not enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.

2. Ketogenic diets may increase blood uric acid concentrations.

The detail that should not be missed here is at the end of the paragraph, where the authors say:

In patients with a gouty diathesis, the increment in hyperuricemia induced by such a regimen could exacerbate the underlying disease.

Anyone here suffering from gout? Then you know from DANDR that you should do Atkins under the supervision of your physician (DANDR 2002, Chapter 10). Everyone should consult their doctor before starting Atkins regardless of whether they have gout or think they are healthy as a horse.

3. Low-carbohydrate diet make you tired.

This is what the article says:

Bloom and Azar[31] have reported that all of the subjects whom they studied on "carbohydrate- free diets" complained of fatigue after two days on the diet. "This complaint was characterized by a feeling of physical lack of energy [and] was brought on by physical activity. The subjects all felt that they did not have sufficient energy to continue normal activity after the third day. This fatigue promptly disappeared after the addition of carbohydrate to the diet."

Two days, huh? So how many of you were fatigued during the first few days? I bet quite a few. And y'all know it's called "Induction flu", it lasts only a few days, and you feel even better than before once your body adjusts to ketosis.

The warnings from medical authorities continue to this day. "People need to wake up to the reality," former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop writes, that the Atkins Diet is "unhealthy and can be dangerous."[6]

Again, no evidence. Reference [6] is from a Shape Up America! news release from 2003.

The world's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals,[7] calls the Atkins Diet "a nightmare of a diet."[8] The official spokesperson of the American Dietetic Association elaborated: "The Atkins Diet and its ilk--any eating regimen that encourages gorging on bacon, cream and butter while shunning apples, all in the name of weight loss--are a dietitian's nightmare."[9] The ADA has been warning Americans about the potential hazards of the Atkins Diet for almost 30 years now.[10] Atkins dismissed such criticism as "dietician talk".[11] "My English sheepdog," Atkins once said, "will figure out nutrition before the dieticians do."[12]

Two references are from Chicago Tribune. Another reference is from Tampa Tribune. Reference [12] is from a paper/journal I can't find online. The other two references ([7] and [10]) are from the Journal of the American Dietetics Association, but none shows any proof why Atkins would be dangerous.

"Gorging on bacon, cream and butter"? Those who read DANDR 2002 don't do this. "Shunning apples"? You bet I'm going to try apples when I get to OWL Rung 7. The guys who wrote [9] seem to believe Atkins Induction is the only phase of Atkins, when we all know the Induction phase only needs to last for two weeks and there is research showing showing that, for most people, it's safe to be followed for at least 6 months (see, for example, the Duke University study from 2002).

The problem for Atkins (and his sheepdog), though, is that the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body in the United States, agrees with the AMA and the ADA in opposing the Atkins Diet.[13] So does the American Cancer Society;[14] and the American Heart Association;[15] and the Cleveland Clinic;[16] and Johns Hopkins;[17] and the American Kidney Fund;[18] and the American College of Sports Medicine;[19] and the National Institutes of Health.[20]

Again, many references don't bring any proof as to why Atkins is dangerous. Reference [13] does not oppose the Atkins Diet, but simply recommends a high-carbohydrate, low-fat, low-calorie diet for weight loss. In fact, what the authors say is:

Low-calorie diets are safe for patients who have comorbid conditions such as diabetes, hyperlipidemia, or hypertension. However, they should be followed only with physician approval and supervision by a health-care provider since the patient may become ketotic and dehydrated, especially if the diet is very low in carbohydrate (Dwyer and Lu, 1993).

They are talking about low-calorie diets, which indeed might be dangerous combined with low-carb. But a low-calorie, low-carb diet is not Atkins.

The link for reference [14] is broken, so I'm not sure what it says.

Reference [15] repeats the myths we often hear about the Atkins diet, which are discussed in DANDR 2002. Moreover, the authors of the study believe, as many do, that Induction is the whole Atkins Diet. For "foods to avoid" they list: "Carbohydrates, specifically bread, pasta, most fruits and vegetables, milk". I must be doing all this Atkins thing wrong, because I just had coconut gelatin with raspberries for breakfast, a salad with peppers, arugula, tomatoes, avocado and chicken for lunch, and for dinner I'll probably have a hamburger made with walnut & almond "bread" and a side of roasted veggies (zucchini, tomatoes, onions... and whatever else I need to get rid of from the fridge).

Reference [16]. Ignoring the part that says Atkins is a high-protein diet, the arguments they bring are the same myths Dr. Atkins addresses in DANDR 2002: kidney failure and kidney stones (no proof that Atkins causes kidney failure/stones in individuals without kidney problems; those with kidney disease should not do Atkins, as Dr. Atkins told us, unless recommended to do so by their doctor), high cholesterol (this is the old myth that associates total cholesterol levels with heart disease, when in fact different types of cholesterol are more important), etc. Above all is, of course, the "dangerous metabolic state" of ketosis, which would not be dangerous at all if people would stop confusing ketosis with ketoacidosis. [16], like many other articles, mentions as one of the bad things about Atkins the decrease in a person's appetite. It's puzzling for me why this is such a bad thing...... As Dr. Pescatore wrote in Feed Your Kids Well (Chapter 20):

Children will eat when they need to. It is a simple human trait, genetically programmed into us. Unless there is a true, serious psychological problem or a political statement to be made, no one will voluntarily starve to death.

I can't find reference [17], but there are plenty of studies showing that low carbohydrate diets are efficient in the control of diabetes. Just Google "diabetes low carbohydrate diets" and you'll get a lot of results.

Reference [18] discusses an increase in the incidence of kidney disease in the US. I need to register on some weird website to read the whole article, but again, there is no evidence that Atkins causes kidney disease. It's mere speculation. The funny thing is what the guys from the American Kidney Fund write in a brochure from 2005:

If you have diabetes, you will need to watch your carbohydrate intake.

You need to do WHAT??? Nah.... Really?!?!

Reference [19]. I don't have access to the full article, but in the abstract the only reference to carbohydrates is this:

An energy deficit of 500-1000 kcal/day achieved through reductions in total energy intake is recommended. Moreover, it appears that reducing dietary fat intake to <30% of total energy intake may facilitate weight loss by reducing total energy intake. Although there may be advantages to modifying protein and carbohydrate intake, the optimal doses of these macronutritents for weight loss have not been determined. Significant health benefits can be recognized with participation in a minimum of 150 min (2.5 h) of moderate intensity exercise per week, and overweight and obese adults should progressively increase to this initial exercise goal.

There is nothing here to make me believe they consider Atkins to be dangerous...

Reference [20] mentions low-fat diets, saying:

Safe and effective weight-loss programs should include:

• Healthy eating plans that reduce calories but do not forbid specific foods or food groups.
• Tips to increase moderate-intensity physical activity.
• Tips on healthy habits that also keep your cultural needs in mind, such as lower-fat versions of your favorite foods.
• Slow and steady weight loss. Depending on your starting weight, experts recommend losing weight at a rate of 1/2 to 2 pounds per week. Weight loss may be faster at the start of a program.
• Medical care if you are planning to lose weight by following a special formula diet, such as a very low-calorie diet (a program that requires careful monitoring from a doctor).
• A plan to keep the weight off after you have lost it.

Point #1: Atkins does not "forbid" any food groups. Unless one is an uninformed "Atkineer" and thinks Induction is the only phase of Atkins.
Point #2: As Dr. Atkins told us, Atkins without exercise is not Atkins.
Point #3: Hmm.... "Low-fat", like the stuff that has a bunch of sugar to replace the fat, right? Processed foods, sugars and a bunch of additives with unpronounceable names can only be good for one's health...
Point #4: One loses weight depending on how overweight that person is. Someone with 150 lbs to lose will lose more than someone who is 30 lbs overweight. The 2 lbs per week limit is "fishy". As one gets closer to goal, net weight loss (i.e. measured in X lbs per week) will naturally slow down.
Point #5: Does not apply to Atkins.
Point #6: Yay, Atkins has a Maintenance phase.

In fact there does not seem to be a single major governmental or nonprofit medical, nutrition, or science-based organization in the world that supports the Atkins Diet.[21] As a 2004 medical journal review concluded, the Atkins Diet "runs counter to all the current evidence-based dietary recommendations."[22]

Reference [21] is the same as [15], which I discussed above.

I won't even bother talking about reference [22], because it's one of those where the authors believe Atkins is a never-ending Induction phase. And if one reads the article (assuming one has read DANDR!), their arguments are either poorly supported by scientific evidence (for e.g., "Although prospective data confirming the association between postprandial lipemia and atherogenesis are still lacking, there are multiple plausible mechanisms by which this phenomenon could contribute to the atherosclerotic process.", which reminds me of the "58% of the protein you eat will convert to glucose and increase your blood glucose levels" statement) and/or are not pointing against Atkins (for e.g., "Nevertheless, it should be noted that many of these favorable changes [observed on a low-carbohydrate diet], including a reduction in serum LDL, could be achieved with conventional weight loss diets either alone (22) or in combination with exercise (23,24). Further, low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets do not consistently decrease LDL particle size (25).")

If one wants to follow Atkins, he/she should read the book (1) to make sure the diet is followed correctly and (2) to understand why and how Atkins works, and whether it's indeed a healthy way of eating. Before starting Atkins, everyone should see their doctor. Don't forget to exercise, take your multivitamin and whatever other supplements your doctor recommends, and you will likely see the results Dr. Atkins promised in DANDR.

Also, Kent (who, for the newbies, is one of the ADBB admins) discusses many of the myths surrounding Atkins in his YouTube videos, so check those out as well: YouTube - bowulf's Channel

[yanto]

Re: Nay sayers

Thank you, I find your story and those of others on the forum very reassuring. I think because Atkins goes against everything I have been taught (and perhaps more worryingly what I have taught to others) I panic easily if I read anything negative. I would not have tried Atkins if I had not already started to think twice after dismissing it as garbage for all those years since it first appeared in our culture. I started to do Atkins after watching a Gary Taubes lecture because it made me start to reconsider my (probably misinformed) opinion of Low Carb regimes, I wanted to see the effects myself so I could make my own decisions. I now know after two week induction that it is very, very effective in removing excess bodyfat. I am currently feeling no ill effects and feel less tired than I used to. I will continue my research further and get some tests done on cholesterol etc in a couple of months. Unfortunately I did not have chance to get them tested before I started.

[Georgiana]

Re: Nay sayers

Looks like I wrote enough to bore myself. I'm not going to read all that... If anyone bothers to read and sees anything that doesn't look right, please yell at me. Thanks.

[Slapshot]

Re: Nay sayers

Safe and effective weight-loss programs should include:

• Healthy eating plans that reduce calories but do not forbid specific foods or food groups.
• Tips to increase moderate-intensity physical activity.
• Tips on healthy habits that also keep your cultural needs in mind, such as lower-fat versions of your favorite foods.
• Slow and steady weight loss. Depending on your starting weight, experts recommend losing weight at a rate of 1/2 to 2 pounds per week. Weight loss may be faster at the start of a program.
• Medical care if you are planning to lose weight by following a special formula diet, such as a very low-calorie diet (a program that requires careful monitoring from a doctor).
• A plan to keep the weight off after you have lost it.

Point #1: Atkins does not "forbid" any food groups. Unless one is an uninformed "Atkineer" and thinks Induction is the only phase of Atkins.
Point #2: As Dr. Atkins told us, Atkins without exercise is not Atkins.
Point #3: Hmm.... "Low-fat", like the stuff that has a bunch of sugar to replace the fat, right? Processed foods, sugars and a bunch of additives with unpronounceable names can only be good for one's health...
Point #4: One loses weight depending on how overweight that person is. Someone with 150 lbs to lose will lose more than someone who is 30 lbs overweight. The 2 lbs per week limit is "fishy". As one gets closer to goal, net weight loss (i.e. measured in X lbs per week) will naturally slow down.
Point #5: Does not apply to Atkins.
Point #6: Yay, Atkins has a Maintenance phase.

This is awesome.

[neutronnorman]

Re: Nay sayers

Looks like I wrote enough to bore myself. I'm not going to read all that... If anyone bothers to read and sees anything that doesn't look right, please yell at me. Thanks.

"...the existence of radiation or of the electron..."

I prefer ingest my minerals from the actinide series on the table you put up.

Okay, G,. what's the probabailty of finding an electron of a Li+ atom at the nucleus? Where is it the rest fo the time?

[Georgiana]

Re: Nay sayers

Check these threads too:

http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.com/forums/atkins-low-carb-success-stories/73819-thank-you-dr-atkins.html

http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.com/forums/atkins-low-carb-success-stories/75085-report-my-doctor.html

[brandywine1241]

Re: Nay sayers

Thanks, Georgiana, for taking the time to refute this piece of garbage posing as a serious scientific evaluation.

My summary of your post is:
- Many of the references are from the popular press - not peer reviewed journals
- Many references refer to Induction as the total plan
- Some references are outright wrong (citing statements about low calorie diets)

And let's not forget my favorite:

... the National Academy of Sciences, the most prestigious scientific body in the United States, agrees with the AMA and the ADA in opposing the Atkins Diet.[13] So does the American Cancer Society;[14] and the American Heart Association;[15] and the Cleveland Clinic;[16] and Johns Hopkins;[17] and the American Kidney Fund;[18] and the American College of Sports Medicine;[19] and the National Institutes of Health.[20]

These are the same geniuses that told us to quit eating butter and instead use "healthy" margarine made from trans-fats. The AHA slapped its "heart healthy" logo on any product that was low fat/low sodium whose manufacturer was willing to pay for it, iincluding cereals with as much as 1/4 C sugar per serving! And then they told us this was a healthy breakfast for our children...

EDIT: Oops, that should have been 4 teaspoons, not 4 tablespoons of sugar in the cereal. Still not a small amount.

[Elizellen]

Re: Nay sayers

Georgiana rocks!!

[pagliaccia]

Re: Nay sayers

I'm still not 100% sure G ISN'T a robot. Maybe I've been watching too much Bladerunner.

[imagood1]

Re: Nay sayers

I have lived long enough to learn not to listen to the crap people like to write. I'm glad Georgiana has time to answer things -- it makes it much better for the new people who need the correct information. Kudos Georgiana!!

[neutronnorman]

Re: Nay sayers

I'm still not 100% sure G ISN'T a robot. Maybe I've been watching too much Bladerunner.

She's good. Well, she does her research. She's probably also a voracious reader. If she's published in her research, I'd like to peruse it (hint G.).

I think if you look at her signature, she has a link to a low carb blog where she post's a lot of her diet findings.

G. you are very, very talented.

[neutronnorman]

Re: Nay sayers

"...if I could choose my way to die, being swallowed by a black hole would be on top of the list )...."

Great way to lose weight. You'll be "spaghetti-fied." At least you'll have the longest legs in the universe, that is, if you fell feet first.