What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

[mitzimarie]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

I guess it's all in how you interpret it... I don't really view it as pushing them... it's more like allowing them, if you choose to eat them. It says that bars and shakes can replace their high-carb analogues, eliminating a sense of deprivation... not that they should replace them. Personally, I could not handle the bars, even after maintaining my goal weight for a year... they awakened terrible cravings in me. I tried many times, and it never ended well. But just because I couldn't handle them (and most people couldn't, I would venture to guess), doesn't mean that they can not be used by anybody.

The new book says to use low-carb products carefully. That while they can make doing Atkins easier, you shouldn't overdo them. And you're not supposed to substitute them for any of your 12 - 15 grams of Net Carbs from foundation vegetables.

Yes - in a perfect world, we should only eat natural, unprocessed foods. That's not as easy for some, as it is for others.

[mizski]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

I didn't come away from reading the new book thinking it was pushing products. In fact I didn't even notice them on my first read. I think it was maybe Liv? who pointed them out to me in the menus. I was surprised that it just mentions "low carb bar" or "low carb shake" and not Atkins bars or shakes. I see most of the menu suggestions to be real foods with the occasional bar or shake suggestion (which I ignore LOL).

Can't say I agree with the "you have to have snacks" thing though. I seldom have snacks. I just don't see the point of eating a snack just because the authors say I now need one.

I also don't agree with the adding 1/2 tsp. of salt to your diet each day and drinking a couple cups of high sodium broths each day. LOTS of discussions on this subject on the atkins boards and some explanation in the new book. This is one point that I just disagree on.

In response to the OP re: DANDR 2002 being out of date, I don't agree. I am so very glad that I have been following DANDR these past seven months. There are some good points in the new book and there is some updated info like more SF sweeteners to choose from, a good discussion on the different fats and why we need omega-3s and very helpful info on inflammation and CRP. The menus are helpful and broken down by phase and carb increments. Like any menu suggestions, you use what is helpful and ignore the rest. I also like the recipe section.

IMO, the new book can be a helpful supplement to DANDR. For people just starting out though, I think the differences between the two books may be confusing. My vote is to use DANDR as your guide.

[Whatsername]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

I stick with 2002 because that is what I started with in 2003 and I know it works and I am comfortable with it.

I did buy the 2010 book out of curiousity. I like some of the information it has (like the pre-maintenance and maintenance sections). I was hoping for more recipes in it. I just use it as a supplement to the 2002 book. If I am in doubt or have a question, the 2002 book is the one I go to.

[amazon1]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

I haven't read the new book but on another site they were talking about it. I don't eat any of the bars or drinks but I believe I had a thread here where we discussed whether the ladder had to be followed as gospel and it seems like the new book is more flexible about that. You can add berries and nuts right away, etc.

[liv]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

I haven't read the new book but on another site they were talking about it. I don't eat any of the bars or drinks but I believe I had a thread here where we discussed whether the ladder had to be followed as gospel and it seems like the new book is more flexible about that. You can add berries and nuts right away, etc.

Yes that was one of the things that confused me about the new book. They cut out everything about the glycemic index (and everything about ketosis but that is another issue)
The glycemic index makes so much sense to me and is one of the reasons why I think DANDR is such a good book and the diet is so great. But in this book they kind of went back to the 72 system allowing anything after induction.
I know that I can have lots of veggies, nuts and fatty dairy and have no bloodsugar rush. But give me just a tad of berries or melon and that is a whole different story. And I am so glad that I ate dairy then nuts because that way I can have berries because the fat in the nuts and dairy that I mix with the berried reduce the impact of the sugars in them. But that is not important to the new book - just the carb number. They give no explanation as to why they are cutting out this aspect of low carbing, they just do it. Not sure if that is progressing or regressing.

[mizski]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

Ketosis is called the Atkins Edge in the new book or at least that is how I interpret those pages/descriptions. I understand the rationale of eliminating the term ketosis to avoid the "panic" it seems to have caused Dr. Atkins all these years. Still it is what it is (ketosis) and for those like me who want to research things further, I would not be able to find out much scientific information looking up the Atkins Edge. If I were a newbie and only reading the new book I would never know this interesting and IMO valuable information. Still, I think this omission makes the new book more palatable to the general public and Atkins critics.

The new OWL is also confusing to me and I keep rereading those sections. On one hand there is the OWL ladder which has dairy as rung 2 yet on the next page it states that "Most people start by reintroducing nuts and seeds and butters made from them." The book appears to suggest going from Induction to rung 3. What bothers me most is the new OWL's lack of explicit instructions to do OWL more slowly, progressing up the rungs in the order given and noting any problems with newly introduced foods. This information is implied but I believe many dieters (and from what I read on other boards) understand the new OWL as giving them carte blanche to zoom up the OWL ladder or pick out their favorite foods from the ladder in whatever order they prefer.

Oh, and what happened to the wine rung??? Alcohol is now allowed on Day 15. Yes, we all have read the "I want to drink alcohol" threads here and if that is indicative of the general public's desire for consuming booze, I can see the marketing value of allowing it after Induction (14 days). But is that wise? Liquor is a problem in ANY weight loss plan. We all know that. But because the new book glosses over this fact, I fear many of those following this advice from the new book could see their weight loss come screeching to a halt.

While the new OWL ladder is worth consideration I really believe the purposeful re-introduction of new foods in a specific order outlined in DANDR is the way to go. As many have found out, going the DANDR route does help to pinpoint problem foods and not rushing into having the higher carb foods/drink helps one realize that they are not so critical to one's survival after all.

[mitzimarie]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

Yes that was one of the things that confused me about the new book. They cut out everything about the glycemic index (and everything about ketosis but that is another issue)

It is true that they did not include any discussion about glycemic index in the new book, while there was a great deal of reference to it in DANDR. But there is still a carbohydrate ladder, even though dairy other than hard cheeses, cream, and sour cream is added after nuts and berries, rather than before like it is in DANDR.

And while they don't really use the term ketosis in the new book, they do emphasize multiple times how important it is to eat fat, and achieve the fat-burning state, rather than burning glucose. I think they didn't call it ketosis, because so many critics of Atkins confuse it with ketoacidosis. There is a small section on page 287 in the new book that explains the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis.

The glycemic index makes so much sense to me and is one of the reasons why I think DANDR is such a good book and the diet is so great. But in this book they kind of went back to the 72 system allowing anything after induction.

I wouldn't say that they allow anything after induction.

I know that I can have lots of veggies, nuts and fatty dairy and have no bloodsugar rush. But give me just a tad of berries or melon and that is a whole different story.

Well, we are all unique in what we can handle. Personally, I can tolerate nuts and berries a lot better than I can tolerate dairy like fresh cheeses and yogurt. But that is going to vary between indivuduals.

And I am so glad that I ate dairy then nuts because that way I can have berries because the fat in the nuts and dairy that I mix with the berried reduce the impact of the sugars in them. But that is not important to the new book - just the carb number. They give no explanation as to why they are cutting out this aspect of low carbing, they just do it.

I don't get the impression that the new book thinks the carb number is the only important part. If they felt that way, I don't think they would have bothered having a carbohydrate ladder at all...

This what they have to say about the Carb Ladder (page 120 in the new book):

---------------------

"The carb ladder assists you in two ways. First, it provides a logical progression with which to add carbohydrate foods. Second, it prioritizes their amount and frequency. On the lower rungs are the foods you should be eating most often. On the top rungs are the foods that - even in Lifetime Maintenance - will put in an appearance only occasionally, rarely, or never, depending upon your tolerance for carbs."

Rung 1: Foundation vegetables: leafy greens and other low-carb vegetables.
Rung 2: Dairy foods high in fat and low in carbs: cream, sour cream, and most hard cheeses.
Rung 3: Nuts and seeds (but not chestnuts)
Rung 4: Berries, cherries, and melon (but not watermelon)
Rung 5: Whole milk yogurt and fresh cheeses, such as cottage cheese and ricotta
Rung 6: Legumes, including chickpeas, lentils, and the like
Rung 7: Tomato and vegetable juice "cocktail" (plus more lemon and lime juice)
Rung 8: Other fruits (but not fruit juices or dried fruits)
Rung 9: Higher-carb vegetables, such as winter squash, carrots, and peas
Rung 10: Whole grains

--------------------

According to the new book, in Induction you are eating from the first 2 rungs. Since you are required to get 12 - 15 grams of Net Carbs from Foudation Vegetables in Induction, they do not have a separate rung to add more vegetables. The first rung you advance to after Induction is Rung 3 (nuts and seeds).

I agree that they could have spent some time explaining how/why they came up with the Carb Ladder, rather than just telling the reader that there is one. But I don't see it as allowing anything after Induction, by just looking at the number of carbs.

[mitzimarie]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

What bothers me most is the new OWL's lack of explicit instructions to do OWL more slowly, progressing up the rungs in the order given and noting any problems with newly introduced foods. This information is implied but I believe many dieters (and from what I read on other boards) understand the new OWL as giving them carte blanche to zoom up the OWL ladder or pick out their favorite foods from the ladder in whatever order they prefer.

Truth be told, I thought DANDR could have done a better job of explaining how to OWL... if it weren't for the stickies in the OWL forum on this board, and the multitude of helpful members here to answer my questions, I don't think I would have known exactly how to progress up the rungs properly just from reading DANDR.

There is some explanation in the new book about reintroducing foods, and it says that they can't stress enough that writing in your diet journal is particularly important as you start to add back foods. It says that the process doesn't always happen smoothly, and that you'll want to know which food is causing which response, so you will know which food to back off from. But yeah... I think both DANDR and the new book could do a better job explaining how to OWL.

Oh, and what happened to the wine rung??? Alcohol is now allowed on Day 15. Yes, we all have read the "I want to drink alcohol" threads here and if that is indicative of the general public's desire for consuming booze, I can see the marketing value of allowing it after Induction (14 days). But is that wise? Liquor is a problem in ANY weight loss plan. We all know that. But because the new book glosses over this fact, I fear many of those following this advice from the new book could see their weight loss come screeching to a halt.

Yep, no alcohol rung. But there is a section on alcohol on page 127 that discusses things that need to be considered about consuming alcohol while trying to lose weight.

[liv]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

Why not more veggies than 12 net carbs. I wonder how they got to that decision>

Ricotta cheese after berries I just don't get it. I don't get the logic. I understand the logic of the original ladder. You add the items which are fatty and with low impact first and then the rest. But in this one it seems coincidental.

And speaking of coincidental - those serving sizes they list are interesting. What do they mean by them? Are they just there to show the relationship between a certain carb number and the quantity. Like on pg 123 a serving sizes of fruits and legumes. A serving size of strawberries is 1.4 carbs but a serving size of cherries is 4.2 carb.

I really found it strange to read about induction and not read about ketosis. Because most of us feel it when it happens and feels it when is stops happening. But these authors just do not mention it.

Oh well. Maybe I'll figure it all out but the book left me with more questions than answers. And I was looking for answers.

[mitzimarie]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

Why not more veggies than 12 net carbs. I wonder how they got to that decision

12g net carbs of veggies is the minimum. I can tell you from running the Veggie Challenges, that most people are not getting a minimum of 12g of net veggie carbs in Induction, much less 15g. What I don't understand, is why they say 12 - 15g... why put a "cap" of 15? If someone wants to get 16g of their 20g in Induction from veggies, why not?

Ricotta cheese after berries I just don't get it. I don't get the logic. I understand the logic of the original ladder. You add the items which are fatty and with low impact first and then the rest. But in this one it seems coincidental.

I don't know why they changed fresh cheeses to a later rung... they never did say why. They do say to have fresh berries with a little cheese, cream, or sour cream to mute the impact on your blood sugar. And again, I'll say this - everyone's tolerances are different. I can only eat ricotta, cottage cheese, and yogurt very sparingly... even in Maintenance. Nuts and berries are easier for me to tolerate.

And speaking of coincidental - those serving sizes they list are interesting. What do they mean by them? Are they just there to show the relationship between a certain carb number and the quantity. Like on pg 123 a serving sizes of fruits and legumes. A serving size of strawberries is 1.4 carbs but a serving size of cherries is 4.2 carb.

In that sample list of carb counts of the different berries and melons, the serving size they are quoting for strawberries and cherries is by the quarter cup... that's why the carbs are listed as 1.4g and 4.2g, respectively. In fact, on that list the serving size for all of the fruits is 1/4 cup. Except gooseberries... for some reason, that is the one fruit that they list the serving size as 1/2 cup... don't know what's up with that. But it is clearly stated on page 119 that you are to gradually move up in 5-gram increments.

I really found it strange to read about induction and not read about ketosis. Because most of us feel it when it happens and feels it when is stops happening. But these authors just do not mention it.

As I said earlier, I think they are just trying to avoid confusion with the term ketoacidosis. Fat-burning is still a very integral part of the Atkins plan in the new book. In fact, it stresses to remain in fat-bruning mode even in Maintenance, which is different than DANDR. I think that is a very important difference, which I happen to think is key to long-term success for me.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

>>why they say 12 - 15g... why put a "cap" of 15?>>

They're leaving room on Induction for 5-8 net carbs from the other Induction foods.

It's a range.

I don't think there's a problem is someone has 16 net carbs from Induction (foundation) vegetables.

[mitzimarie]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

>>why they say 12 - 15g... why put a "cap" of 15?>>

They're leaving room on Induction for 5-8 net carbs from the other Induction foods.

It's a range.

I don't think there's a problem is someone has 16 net carbs from Induction (foundation) vegetables.

Agreed... I just think they could have worded it as "a minimum of 12g of net carbs from foundation vegetables." Some people don't eat cheese, eggs, or sweeteners... theoretically, they could get all 20g of their net carbs from veggies. Not likely! But possible. So I don't see the point of the range. No big deal, though...

[atkinsgal08]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

>>heoretically, they could get all 20g of their net carbs from veggies.>>

True.

>>I just think they could have worded it as "a minimum of 12g of net carbs from foundation vegetables.">>

That would have been nice!

[liv]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

My system is very in tune with the glycemic index and I can pretty much tell what would work and what will not just by knowing the number. If it is very glycemic I would mix it with something fatty. Berries are more glycemic than nuts and fatty dairy. The tendency by the Atkins books from 2002 and onwards have been to use this index. They even tried their own number the AGR (Atkins Glycemic Ranking - I liked it) for a while. But here they are just abandoning it. My question is why, Why WHY? Yes I know I am not getting any answers. I like logic and order.

[Bascoloco]

Re: What's Diff Between Atkins Book?

sorry old response out of context