"fat burning " or "cardiovascular"?

[eireanngobrach]

hello everyone!

I am hoping some bright soul on here can answer a long standing question I have had about using your target heart rate when working out.

Obviously I am excercising for weight loss ( and all the great benefits that come with it, but I'll be honest,I want to be thin!), so usually when I am doing any kind of aerobic excercise ( bike, elliptical, ect) I set it for weight loss mode, which tells you to work out at a much less intense pace than say cardiovascular training. For example, yesterday on the bike my target heart rate was 140 and I felt i barely broke a sweat. Now, I have 112 lbs to lose, so it is more advantageous for me to work out vigorously with a THR of say 170 or do it slower at 140? I just feel like I am not really sweating or really getting myself worked up when I am in fat burning mode. If I am in ketosis no matter what king of excercise I do I will burn fat, true?

[Esther]

I always follow the advice of Dr Phil Maffetone who recommends working out for longer periods in your fat-burning zone. He recommends a heart-rate of 180-minus-age. I find I can work out in that range for ages, which means loads and loads of fat-burning going on. As soon as I go over, I have to slow down or stop. Working out in this zone will gradually build up your cardio-vascular system, too. And you never get out of breath!

Here's a link to a downloadable pdf file based on his work

http://www.teammudge.org/training/TrainingLogIntro2.pdf

Print it out and have a good read. I just bought the book and have been busy reading it for the last coupe of days, but this file sumarizes it nicely.

Hope this helps. :wave

[ttdriver]

I agree with Esther ..

What you want is SLOWER, STRONGER, LONGER in order to burn fat. It may not make you think you are breaking a sweat, but you are burning fat.

Alot of people think they have to over-exert in order to burn fat. Not true. Actually, conversely, you need to slow things down and maintain that slower pace longer. Otherwise you become anaerobic and build up lactic acid which is counterproductive to burning fat.

SLOW SLOW SLOW. LONG LONG LONG.... for maximum fat burning.

Betty

[Effie]

I'm not disagreeing with Esther or Betty, but I have a different answer for your question.

Don't assume that you can only burn fat when you're in the "fat-burning zone". What that means is that you're burning a greater percentage of fat compared to carbs. For example: If you were walking for 10 minutes and burned 100 calories, about 70% of those calories would come from fat, and the other 30% from carbs.

BUT, if you were running (i.e. in "cardiovascular mode") you might burn 200 calories, but only say, 50% is fat. 50% of 200 calories is 100 calories, so still more than 70% of 100, or 70 calories. Even though you're burning a less percentage of fat, doesn't mean you're burning less fat. Bottom line is, the more calories you burn, the more fat you burn.

That may have sounded confusing, so I looked up an article that might explain it better:

As far as fitness is concerned, remember that any exercise - be it walking around the block or taking the stairs instead of the lift - is better than none. However, you will burn more calories and thus, start burning fat more quickly if you exercise at a high intensity over a shorter period of time rather than working out at a lower intensity for longer. The idea that you burn more fat if you exercise for a long time at a low intensity is simply not true.

Now, this doesn't mean you should go out and attempt a three-and-a-half-
minute sprint on the treadmill. Exercise is relative to the person doing it, so working at a high intensity does not mean pushing yourself to the point of collapse or pain, it simply means exerting yourself past your normal comfort level. For example, it is better to do 30 minutes of brisk walking on the treadmill than 45 minutes at a more relaxed pace if weight loss (i.e. burning fat) is your goal.

I still agree with Betty though, so I don't want to sound like I'm contradicting her. There's a difference between anaerobic activity and higher-intensity activity. Break a sweat, just don't kill yourself so you're out of breath or in pain. Don't feel like you're going to not burn fat if you work out harder than your fat burning zone. I know for me, personally, if I use the heart rate monitors on the equipment at the gym, I'm always above the recommended target. If I was to stay in the "fat-burning zone", I'd end up walking at like 2 miles per hour, which I KNOW isn't giving me an effective workout.

[Esther]

There is so much controversy over this, and I'm not going to disagree with anyone.

I think the trick is to find a heart-rate that you can comfortably maintain for a good while. For me, a 3 1/2 minute sprint would be an impossiblilty, but I can waddle along walking and jogging for 2 hours. But then, if you only have 10 minutes to spare you have to figure out how best to spend it...

It also depends on what you *enjoy* doing. There's nothing I like more than going out on a good explore in the woods, but some people find things like that deathly boring. Everyone is different, and everyone has to be 'an experiment of one' to try to find out what is best for them.

[ttdriver]

Break a sweat, just don't kill yourself so you're out of breath or in pain. Don't feel like you're going to not burn fat if you work out harder than your fat burning zone. I know for me, personally, if I use the heart rate monitors on the equipment at the gym, I'm always above the recommended target. If I was to stay in the "fat-burning zone", I'd end up walking at like 2 miles per hour, which I KNOW isn't giving me an effective workout.

I totally agree.

BTW, you might consider purchasing a Polar HRM with the chest strap .. they are far more accurate than the HRMs on the gym equipment.

Keep it up!!

Betty

[Esther]

Effie - I noticed what you posted in another forum about not being able to train for a marathon and lose weight at the same time.

I think that if you aim for only a fat-burning/aerobic/low-intensity (call it what you will...) training schedule, *and* keep your carbs down so you can't 'cheat' and switch to carb-burning, then you're almost *bound* to lose weight.

If you exercise at a higher intenisity/anaerobically/sugar-burning, then you're going to burn carbs instead of/more than fat, and your blood sugars are going to wobble and you're going to get hungry and eat enough carbs to compensate for you just ran off, which means you won't lose weight.

That's my theory - anyone want to join me and start some long, slow, low-carb training to test it out? It's gonna be more of a 'Can you train for a marathon while losing weight?' rather than a 'Can you lose weight while training for a marathon?' as I'm determined to keep the weight loss up even if the training ends up taking 3 or 4 years (never was any good at running...)

[Effie]

Effie - I noticed what you posted in another forum about not being able to train for a marathon and lose weight at the same time.

I think that if you aim for only a fat-burning/aerobic/low-intensity (call it what you will...) training schedule, *and* keep your carbs down so you can't 'cheat' and switch to carb-burning, then you're almost *bound* to lose weight.

I agree! And let me clarify... I wasn't trying to lose weight when I was marathon training. At first, I thought I would naturally lose weight (like what you said above), but then I was just so hungry all the time. I made a mental decision to stop thinking about weight, and just eat what I thought my body needed for fuel. I'll admit, on the days that I did my long runs (16+ miles), I wouldn't think twice about eating half a pizza or a bag of chips afterwards. I stayed at about 165-168 during my entire training period, so even with all that junk food, I didn't gain. I did both marathons before I ever tried low-carb, so that wasn't even a thought at the time.

I run at about an 11-12 minute mile, so I'm definitely all about the long and slow. My point in my first response in this thread was that running at a 12:00 pace is still probably WAY above what my target rate would be in the "fat-burning" zone. I'm in no way saying that people should be sprinting instead of jogging. But.. jogging instead of walking is bound to burn more fat.

[Roserae]

Well, this is how I solved this problem for me. I did the last 6 week exercise challenge walking in "fat-burning mode" Which was a heart rate at about 135-140 according to my Polar HRM. (The BEST tool for monitoring how hard your workout is, IMO) Well, this was just BORING to me and not challenging and felt like I wasn't getting anywhere cardivascular-wise. (I know, not a word). I also didn't lose much weight, but I have been eating too many calories, so I don't blame the form of exercise.

I also want to lose weight, but I also want to improve my cardiovascular health too, so now I work out at a heart rate of 155-160 for half an hour, then slow down to 135-140. This way I get the cardio benefit, but because I slow it down after 30 minutes, I also am able to exercise longer. This is very doable for me.

[eireanngobrach]

So if I want to lose weight, is the following excercise regime in addition to Atkins reasonable:

30mins on elliptical in "fat burning mode ~75 watts"
30mins on stationary bike (the one where you are seated like in a chair b/c the one that REALLY looks like a bike hurts my tush, but if it's better for me then I'll do it!!) in "fat burning mode again ~80 watts)
40 mins strength training on nautilus machines, alternating arms and legs every other day


or should I do elliptical for 1 hour? I always though cardio was cardio, but I REALLY want to drop this weight FASSSSTTT

[Esther]

Eire - your routine looks great! I'd be bored to tears if I only did elliptical for an hour, and the weights will help you shape up beautifully.

Effie - I'm still on 15 min miles! Can't wait till I'm fast enough for 11s... :wave

[FightingTheFight]

Well I'm here to debate a little so to speak. I believe that HIIT training is best for fat burning. There are many studies, and 2Big even talks about it often.

Heres once source.

(From www.musclemedia.com, written by Shawn Phillips - Bill's brother)

For years, we've been told low-intensity aerobic exercise is the best method for ridding the body of excess fat. I'm here to tell you that's not the case. You knew deep down, anyhow, that busting your butt burned off more fat than an exercise that allowed you to read at the same time, didn't you? Well, research shows our instincts were right.2,5
The reason this low-effort theory of aerobic exercise came about is a study showed low-intensity exercise burns a greater percentage of calories from fat as opposed to carbs;1 however, when high-intensity exercise is practiced, the research showed the percentage of fuel from carbs is increased, while the amount of fat utilized is greater than or equal to that burned during low-intensity exercise.

In research, HIIT has been shown to burn adipose tissue more effectively than low-intensity exercise—up to 50% more efficiently! In other words, HIIT speeds up your metabolism and keeps it revved up for some time after your workout. The bottom line is HIIT training burns a greater number of total calories than low-intensity training, and more calories burned equals more fat lost. What I'm suggesting is you forget about the "calories burned" readout on the stairstepper or Lifecycle; if you practice HIIT training, the majority of calories burned will come after your workout!

Another reason low-intensity training became popular is the average, where's-my-remote-control American has no tolerance for high-intensity training. But, of course, if you're a weight trainer, high intensity is a part of life.

One of the great things about HIIT training is it can be applied to all sorts of activities—in or out of the gym. Personally, I like running stairs or sprinting, but it can also be done on a stationary bicycle, a stairstepper, or any activity where you can alternate periods of high intensity with periods of low intensity.
The following outline is a general routine for boosting fat loss, one that's worked well for me. Of course, you'll have to develop at your own pace according to your level of cardiovascular fitness. If you follow the program properly, three or four HIIT sessions a week should produce significant fat-burning effects. To prevent overtraining, try to incorporate the program on your weight training "off days." Your HIIT program will likely be most effective if performed first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, but if you can't do it in the a.m., do it at noon, night, whenever!

Let's assume you're going to apply HIIT training to running sprints or stairs, like I do. I work in intervals. For instance, I'll jog for a set amount of time, sprint for a set amount of time, followed by more jogging, more sprinting, and so on, until I've trained for a certain amount of time. Every other workout, you'll add another minute to your HIIT session. For instance, your first two HIIT sessions during week one will each take only four minutes. On the third workout of week 1, you'll add another 30-second sprint followed by a 30-second jog. Every other workout thereafter, you'll add another minute's worth of HIIT training until finally, by the end of week 8, you'll be doing a 15-minute HIIT session.

Of course, depending on your age, level of fitness, and how badly you want it, you'll periodically have to replace one of the jogging or sprint intervals with a brisk walk. After the 30- or 60-second "break," your heart rate will hopefully come back down off the ceiling, and you'll be ready to resume your sprint and jog intervals.

Let's say I'm just beginning. I'll put on my sweats and Nikes and grab my stopwatch and head out to the track. Table 1 indicates I'm supposed to begin with one 4-minute cycle. This cycle is listed in Table 2.

There. That's it. Only four minutes! That's all for the day! After doing this same program twice the first week, I'll add another 60 seconds to my HIIT training, just as indicated in Table 1. Every third HIIT workout is a little more intense, requiring that I add an additional 30-second sprint and an additional 30-second jog. No matter, by this time, my heart and lungs are starting to handle it.

As the weeks go by, I'll gradually add more and more minutes to my HIIT training, until finally, at the end of week 8, I'll be doing 15 minutes nonstop. By that time, the lines between my abs will be so deep I'll have to periodically clean the lint out with a Q-tip. (So that's where I dropped my car keys!)

The important thing to remember is sprinting is a very intense exercise. If you haven't tried to sprint for 30 seconds since you were a kid, you're in for a shock. Don't take off like you're doing a 40-yard dash. A groundskeeper will likely bury you on the spot where you collapse. Thirty seconds of sprinting should get you close to halfway around a quarter-mile track. Although you should ultimately strive to push yourself to run at 90% of your maximum, pace yourself as necessary in the beginning.