Cups versus carbs

[Jerseyan]

I am having trouble understanding the reasoning behind the "you can have two cups of any of these veggies" rule of induction. If I have one cup of green pepper (4.47 net carbs, using the USDA nutrient database) and one cup of cucumber (1.97 net carbs) (6.44 net carbs consumed), I'm following the rule. But if I have a lunch salad made up of three cups of green leaf lettuce (1.61 net carbs), 50 grams of tomatoes (1.9 net carbs), 30 grams of green pepper (1.34 net carbs) and 20 grams of onion (1.49 net carbs) (6.34 net carbs consumed), I'm NOT following the rule.

Is this one of those cases where the rule is for ease and convenience, but following the actual carb counts is just fine?

[not2late]

Re: Cups versus carbs

I am having trouble understanding the reasoning behind the "you can have two cups of any of these veggies" rule of induction.

The rule is you have 3 cups of Induction vegetables daily. The amount is divided as either 3 cups from the "salad" list or 2 cups from the "salad" list + 1 cup from the "other" list.

If I have one cup of green pepper (4.47 net carbs, using the USDA nutrient database) and one cup of cucumber (1.97 net carbs) (6.44 net carbs consumed), I'm following the rule.

Green pepper and cucumbers are on the "salad" list. You may have 2 cups of them.

But if I have a lunch salad made up of three cups of green leaf lettuce (1.61 net carbs), 50 grams of tomatoes (1.9 net carbs), 30 grams of green pepper (1.34 net carbs) and 20 grams of onion (1.49 net carbs) (6.34 net carbs consumed), I'm NOT following the rule.

If you have a salad of 3 cups of green leaf lettuce, then that's all the vegetables you have for the entire day. Because we are limited to 3 cups of Induction vegetables daily.

Tomatoes and onions are on the "other" list, according to Dr. ATkins New Diet Revolution, 2002 ed, which is the version of the Diet we follow here at ADBB. If you choose to eat "other" list vegetables, then you are limited to 1 cup daily provided you don't exceed the 2 cups of "salad" vegetables.

Is this one of those cases where the rule is for ease and convenience, but following the actual carb counts is just fine?

Not really.

Dr. Atkins divided the vegetable lists into "lower carb vegetables"--vegetables where the total carb is 5% or less of the total cals and "higher carb vegetables"---where the total carb is between 5-10% of the total carbs. This is important because in general the higher the amount of carb, the higher the glycemic index of a food. The glycemic index is important because we need to keep our blood sugars stable during Atkins. Dr. Atkins explains why this is important in Chapters 8 and 10----please read them for yourself because it's rather involved and he does a better job explaining it than I ever could.

Atkins.com seems to ignore all this stuff about glycemic index and the importance of stable blood sugar for weight loss. So they allow you to pick and choose whatever vegetable as long as you get 12-15 net carbs. Unfortunately, that means you can potentially eat 15 cups of lettuce daily or eat 2 cups of tomatoes daily. Neither helps you because eating 15 cups of lettuce doesn't really teach you much about normal portion sizes and eating 2 cups of tomatoes daily can mess up your blood sugar. So we stick to what Dr. ATkins wrote----not some marketing exec at Atkins Nutritionals.

[Jerseyan]

Re: Cups versus carbs

I understand all about the glycemic index, and lettuce (as used in my example) essentially has no glycemic load at all. I do understand this site's focus on the rules (or should I capitalize that? The Rules?), but common sense has got to play a role in this (or any other) diet as well. There are easily checked indices for carb counts, net carbs and glycemic indices and loads, and that suggests to me that the good Doctor was giving people an easy and simple way to stay within the range he wanted, without ever having to calculate things out for themselves. And my results so far prove that, at least for me, the numbers are at least as good as the rules.

[not2late]

Re: Cups versus carbs

I understand all about the glycemic index, and lettuce (as used in my example) essentially has no glycemic load at all. I do understand this site's focus on the rules (or should I capitalize that? The Rules?), but common sense has got to play a role in this (or any other) diet as well. There are easily checked indices for carb counts, net carbs and glycemic indices and loads, and that suggests to me that the good Doctor was giving people an easy and simple way to stay within the range he wanted, without ever having to calculate things out for themselves. And my results so far prove that, at least for me, the numbers are at least as good as the rules.

Then you are lucky, because we've had folks who slow or stop losing if they exceed a certain number of carb grams from a particular food. See there's more to Atkins than counting carbs. If it was merely as simplistic as staying at a certain carb level, Dr. Atkins wouldn't have developed his diet to the extent he did. He would have just said "Keep you carbs below X number daily and you'll lose weight."

As for common sense, it does play into it. For example, common sense would say that eating 15 cups of lettuce is rather extreme, but there are people who do it because 1 cup of lettuce only yields about 1 net carb and they "have" to eat 12-15 net carbs daily. Common sense would also dictate that you don't eat one dozen eggs and a pound of bacon for breakfast because you are able to eat an unlimited amount of eggs and bacon on Atkins, but some people do.

And yes, we do place an emphasis on rules around here because that's really the only way to get everyone on the same page.

[not2late]

Re: Cups versus carbs

I need to make a correction:

Dr. Atkins divided the vegetable lists into "lower carb vegetables"--vegetables where the total carb is 5% or less of the total cals and "higher carb vegetables"---where the total carb is between 5-10% of the total carbs.

That should be

Dr. Atkins divided the vegetable lists into "lower carb vegetables"--vegetables containing less than 5% total carb and "higher carb vegetables"---vegetables containing 5-10% total carbohydrate.

[Georgiana]

Re: Cups versus carbs

Actually DANDR 2002 is very clear regarding the amount of vegetables we are allowed to eat during Induction.

For e.g., on page 123:

3. Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables. You can eat approximately three cups---loosely packed---of salad, or two cups of salad plus one cup of other vegetables [...].

And even more clear on page 229:

6. You may have up to three cups loosely packed (measured raw) salad vegetables each day. This includes all leafy green vegetables, mushrooms, celery, radishes, green peppers, and cucumbers (see also "Salad Vegetables" on page 125).
7. Other vegetables low in carbohydrates are limited to one cup daily. (If you have a cup of these veggies, consume only two cups of salad vegetables.)

Induction is meant to teach one portion control while experiencing all the other advantages of ketosis. And unless one chooses to extend it, it only lasts for 2 weeks. After the first two weeks one can move to OWL and add more veggies while following the Rules of OWL.

And my results so far prove that, at least for me, the numbers are at least as good as the rules.

The numbers are actually part of the rules---not more than 20 net carbs and 3 cups of vegetables. If one goes by DANDR 2002, he/she cannot choose to follow #1 on page 228, but ignore #3 and #4 (or at least part of them) on the next page. Not following a rule does not automatically means you won't lose any weight---it could simply slow down your weight loss or even not affect it at all. But it can be dangerous for many folks, and ignoring a rule here and one there certainly does not build a strong foundation for the rest of one's Atkins journey.