I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

[not2late]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

We agree, Megs! I think that servings matter. It's all controlled in the end whether you call it a serving of fat versus a serving of fat. I knew we always did agree on this matter. The only difference is in the language.

As an aside, I do have concerns about touting those things which are not in the book.

Ratios not in the book. Extended induction per se not in the book. Modified OWL not in the book. Calories mentioned but smacked down... People eating frankenfoods for a day and applauded when it's not in the book.

Some complain people confuse people here, but what's more confusing? Telling people to do what's in the book when there's plenty that's not?

It's all so incredibly odd and confusing.

I think it would be better to admit we're really not a by the book board. Or a by the book plus board... or minus. A little honesty goes a long way rather than the constant attempted justifications of what is actually in the book or not.

Either we should agree that things not in the book are fair game to discuss, or they're not. But I'm seeing some contradictory things that, to me, seem... well... unseemly.

We're all doing Atkins here, and we all use the 2002 version of DANDR. In the end, what ends up being added to the text is either worth discussing or not. But who makes those determinations in the end when we're all so incredibly different?

To tie this full-circle, Jenler has to do what is right for her. We can guide her, give her advice, try to justify why what we tell her should happen even if it's not in the book due to scientific evidence, etc.

In the end, the important thing is that we're here for each other, we all follow Atkins and we are honest with what is in the book and what we've improved upon (as I see it as an improvement) at ADBB.

I think there's a lot to feel blessed with. {{{Jenler}}}{{{Megs}}}

The ratios are in the book if you take the time to analyse the menues and the recipes, as are the proper Atkins serving sizes for protein and added fat. That's why whenever I read someone saying they ate a 12 ounce sirloin steak for dinner, it makes me cringe, because I know that person hasn't carefully read the book. Ditto for the people who use "alot" of salad dressing or "alot" of butter. And I know people haven't read the book carefully because some people don't even know there's a whole section of recipes in it.

I wrote this in another thread today. When I began Atkins, I needed to know what was "appropriate". My book arrived from Amazon.com the day Dr. Atkins died. So Dr. Atkins kind invitation in the book to call the Atkins Center or write to him any time with questions wasn't an option for me. I hadn't found ADBB either, so all I had was me, the DANDR 2002 hardcover and how well I read it. For supplemental reading I had the Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution Cookbook and the Dr. Atkins New Carbohydrate Gram Counter (it was a 3 book package offer from Amazon.com) I found that all the answers are in the book: how "much" you should eat, what kind of snacks are okay, etc. It just depends on how carefully and analytically the book is read.

As for calories being "smacked down". Calories aren't "smacked down" in the book. Dr. Atkins fully acknowledged calories matter. I've quoted that section in Ch 11 enough times these past few weeks that every ADBBer should have that FAQ memorized. "Extended Induction" and "Modified OWL" appear in the book, but not in the manner in which some people practice those things here. Notice, I don't encourage newbies who have mid to low metabolic resistance to continue with Induction, neither do I encourage them to do the Modified OWL---as the OWL mod, I've seen more headaches with keeping carbs artificially low for extended periods of time than I have any good. And I've butted heads with other mods over this too. I guess I'm more of a stickler, but then I don't consider legumes(peanuts) to be nuts, chocolate to be a "spice" or spinach a "salad" vegetable. And you never see me say that flaxseed was Dr. Atkins fiber supplement of choice because I read that sentence in DANDR where he explicitly says his "preference is for psyllium". Again, it boils down to how closely and analytically one reads the book.

[Bren]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Who said Atkins Nutritional? It was the Atkins Center and I requested information based upon the DANDR which we follow here.
Cleo, the information I have provided for you here is based on what the members who have had the weight loss surgury have provided me. That would be my personal interaction with these girls. Nothing to do with Curves itself.

[Jasmain]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

I think a few people here need to go back and read the book again too. The need for water, exercise and the right portions of food are all in there. Boot Camp is not in there, yes, that is something that was created to help get through a clean induction. No, the board does NOT lie, it IS by the book. I take offence, and serious offence, at this board being drug through the mud. The same people are being rude about it, the same people are constantly trying to make this board seem lacking and wrong in too many ways. The same people are the trouble makers, each and every time.

I don't think having differing opinions is a reason for anyone to leave. I do think however, that a complete lack of respect for this place and what it stands for should be some good clues. I don't think that trying to make points by trying to make the work that everyone has put into this place seem trivial and "unseemly" is anything other than striking below the belt.

If you don't like the way things are handled here, leave, but do NOT drag this place down while those of us that owe this place a lot are standing here with our mouths gaping open at the audacity and rude behavior.

[cleochatra]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I think. I appreciate the discussion.

Than you Bren and Megs, for responding to some of the questions I'm having. I think some of my points were confused as is evidenced by the responses, but really, it is something I'd been slightly concerned with.

I don't have any problems with what ADBB decides it chooses to use from the book and what's been added. My concerns were more or less academic.

Thank you for your time.

And Jenler, you're doing great! Sorry for the sidetracking. I'll make it up to you.

[2big4mysize]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Jenler starvation mode takes weeks of eating below the amount of cals your body needs to kick in. As long as you are feeding your body the amount it is telling you it needs and using supplements to make up for your poor food nutrient choices you should be fine. your body will tell you just as it does a little kid after a couple days low eat and then you will be posting about having a hungry day and worried you had too much food that day cause you had been have so little usually.

In DANDR DR Atkins is very specific about only feeding our hunger UNLESS the 6 hrs hits and even then he is very specific about having a SMALL protein/fat snack with some of our carbs. it is like when you are driving and the speedlimit is 55 but in your rules of the road booklet they tack on that little phrase conditons permitting so if you are going 55 in an ice storm you are going to get a ticket if you wreck and it will say driving too fast for conditions even if you were at or below the posted speed limit.

yep Cleo, back when Dr Atkins was alive the food and the medical practice were seperate and the phone number Dr Atkins gave out was for his medical center. After he died Atkins Nutritional bought the foods and books rights but disolved the medical practice. that is ANA. ANA did not exist when Dr Atkins was alive.

and Cleo again if you take those sample menues in DANDR from DR ATKINS and plug them in to a nutritional program you wuill get the ratios and the steping down of the total amount of fat in the diet as we move from induction to maintnenance. So why you keep posting they aren't in the book is beyond me. Obviously many folk didn't do that nor understand looking at those menues it was occurring just as the words too high protein and can't do it low fat didn't explain it to them and needed an outside source like Dr Atkins' medical staff to point that out to them. perhaps the next time a boot camper hammers a DS or DA about that they should assign that tast to them.

Exteneded induction is in DANDR too when Dr Atkins put in a whole chapter about decideing when to move to OWL or keep eating induction and that would be chapter 13 with the questions to help us decide about doing it that way. eating induction all the way to goal weight is the discourged way to do Atkins but extended induction is by the book. And if you look in the chapter on carbohydrates there is a whole page on nuts and Dr Atkins says after the 14 day induction those are the first foods he tells his patients to add back to their induction foods. Again if he didn't plan on a longer induction why write about beuing the first thing to add back after 14 days induction eating? OWL nuts are rung 3 not the first thing added back.


As tro adding to the book I haven't seen any of thast other then the OWL food lists are from the Atkins for life book and not DANDR since DANDR doesn't contain the Atkins GLycemic ranking in its last edition

[LOWCARBINCLEVELANDOH]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

WOW

I think the bottom lines is......


What gives YOU results??

Isn't that why we are all here? I know when I drive past Pizza Hut that I am not turning into the driveway because I want results.

If counting calories along with this WOE gets someone the results they want, why shouldn't they do it?

This is all I need to see to figure out if being calorie conscious works:




I am not here for cosmetic purposes. I am here to save and enhance my life. I am also here to find out what other people are doing and what works for me. Most of all, I am using this as a tool to get results. and to keep them!

I hope this doesn't sound like I am being a smart alec. I just don't understand why these discussions always turn into so much hoopla. When I cut calories, I got different results than when I didn't.

YOur mileage may vary!

[Perry]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Perceived behaviors aside, I'm finding these threads about the book (along with the personal analogies) very educational. This board (and membership) will flourish with pointed questions and enlightened discussion.

Happy low-carbing!

[Jasmain]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Thank you 2big, as always, for a very comprehensive, detailed answer to the question that Jenler asked. You're the best.

Jenler starvation mode takes weeks of eating below the amount of cals your body needs to kick in. As long as you are feeding your body the amount it is telling you it needs and using supplements to make up for your poor food nutrient choices you should be fine. your body will tell you just as it does a little kid after a couple days low eat and then you will be posting about having a hungry day and worried you had too much food that day cause you had been have so little usually.

In DANDR DR Atkins is very specific about only feeding our hunger UNLESS the 6 hrs hits and even then he is very specific about having a SMALL protein/fat snack with some of our carbs. it is like when you are driving and the speedlimit is 55 but in your rules of the road booklet they tack on that little phrase conditons permitting so if you are going 55 in an ice storm you are going to get a ticket if you wreck and it will say driving too fast for conditions even if you were at or below the posted speed limit.

yep Cleo, back when Dr Atkins was alive the food and the medical practice were seperate and the phone number Dr Atkins gave out was for his medical center. After he died Atkins Nutritional bought the foods and books rights but disolved the medical practice. that is ANA. ANA did not exist when Dr Atkins was alive.

and Cleo again if you take those sample menues in DANDR from DR ATKINS and plug them in to a nutritional program you wuill get the ratios and the steping down of the total amount of fat in the diet as we move from induction to maintnenance. So why you keep posting they aren't in the book is beyond me. Obviously many folk didn't do that nor understand looking at those menues it was occurring just as the words too high protein and can't do it low fat didn't explain it to them and needed an outside source like Dr Atkins' medical staff to point that out to them. perhaps the next time a boot camper hammers a DS or DA about that they should assign that tast to them.

Exteneded induction is in DANDR too when Dr Atkins put in a whole chapter about decideing when to move to OWL or keep eating induction and that would be chapter 13 with the questions to help us decide about doing it that way. eating induction all the way to goal weight is the discourged way to do Atkins but extended induction is by the book. And if you look in the chapter on carbohydrates there is a whole page on nuts and Dr Atkins says after the 14 day induction those are the first foods he tells his patients to add back to their induction foods. Again if he didn't plan on a longer induction why write about beuing the first thing to add back after 14 days induction eating? OWL nuts are rung 3 not the first thing added back.


As tro adding to the book I haven't seen any of thast other then the OWL food lists are from the Atkins for life book and not DANDR since DANDR doesn't contain the Atkins GLycemic ranking in its last edition

[Jellybean1984]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Okay I have my answers. thanks everyone. cause i created this can i request it now we locked? didnt mean to cause this...I would really like it to be locked.

[cypressgirl]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Okay I have my answers. thanks everyone. cause i created this can i request it now we locked? didnt mean to cause this...I would really like it to be locked.

It's okay Jenler! Even though folks can get riled up or off topic or whatever, there are probably people who learned something very valuable from this. If you hadn't asked then they may still be sitting there confused. You did alright!

[cleochatra]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

I got a negative ding for my contribution to this thread.

I'm sorry to have upset you, Bren! I didn't think extended induction was an off-limits place to discuss calories with someone who had an honest question.

[Jellybean1984]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Cleo, I appreciated your imput. I am sorry it reflected negitive but I do appreciate your answer to my question which was what I was looking for. Ive signed up elsewhere so I can ask those kind of questions without it being a big deal so i will take it there when i have anything wrong or curious outside of the book. thnx everyone. I cant figure out how to lock it but I would appreciate no further comment

[Heidi3]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Perceived behaviors aside, I'm finding these threads about the book (along with the personal analogies) very educational. This board (and membership) will flourish with pointed questions and enlightened discussion.

Happy low-carbing!

Is that what you see here Perry?

I see it as another attempt to push a point that sends people into a confusing loop of what is healthy and what is not when it comes to loosing weight....and personally I see this as an unhealthy attempt to get one persons persistant point across over and over again until she is some how vindicated.......
isn't there an entire other board for this? or is that one not big enough?
what does the adbb actually advocate re calorie counting? binge eating....
people and silly behaviors????
eating 600-900 calories a day is not healthy especially if you are working out ...Bren is right.. ...even if one doctor tells you it is...Doctors just by name and title are not the end in nutrition that is for sure......for the most part Dr's know very little about weight loss and nutrition ....that is why they send you off to see someone else about that....

and if someone wants to count calories then count them
but if someone wants to make a needless confusing point over and over again I think there should be a self imposed limit on that don't you?

[Heidi3]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

oh yeah one more thing about gastric bipass patients....
they have horrible problems post op with hairloss, bone loss, constipation, diarrhea, yes they need massive supplimentations for live...and monthy bloodwork for a year or more...they live in chronic states of anemia, dehydration....
I am telling you this from a nursing perspective and experience that is quite strong now that insurance is covering this type of surgery and we are seeing the aftermath of symptoms not many folks can continue to live at this low calorie level....all the old pathology will come streaming back in sooner or later because you are not correcting anything ...nor are you finding a healthier way to live...gastric bipass is putting your tummy in surgical jail during what is supposed to be a learning process....and for some it is the answer...for most ..not...neither is a calorie restricted diet ..that is why the Atkins plan was invented ..for people who did not win at loosing and keeping it off with a calorie restricted plan....

so I am thinking using a gastric bipass patient as an example of how a low caloried diet can be healthy is not exactly the best analogy for an argument...

[wannabethintoo]

Re: I know I know cals are not counted...BUT! I got a question

Heidi...did you not read Jenler's post about wanting this thread to be locked?