My belt is tighter today ?

[sandrac02]

Hi

I wore the same cardigan last week, it has a buckle belt, I made a new knotch. I am wearing it today, the buckle is in the same hole, and its so tight Im thinking of loosening it. I have stuck to my eating plan over the weekend so not sure why this has happened. I am at TOM, but I would of thought that the bloated weight gain would have been before ? Over the weekend I have had to force myself to eat. Basically I have got calories from fat rather than food. Although I managed to eat all my veggies. I have cut down on calores in the last week in the hope that I may loose some weight !

I havent weighed myself this morning because if I have put weight on I will be too discouraged

Any ideas why I may have gained weight?

If you need to check my meals out Ive attached the fitday link.

http://www.fitday.com/fitness/PublicJournals.html?Owner=SANDRACOLDER02

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

I am at TOM, but I would of thought that the bloated weight gain would have been before ?

Not necessarily.

I have cut down on calores in the last week in the hope that I may loose some weight !

Not exactly how it works on Atkins. When I stalled, I actually had to increase my calories to start losing again.

I havent weighed myself this morning because if I have put weight on I will be too discouraged

There will be many days in the future when your weight will increase. It's better if you learn to deal with them instead of "panicking".

And you realize weight gain is extremely common during TOM, right?

Any ideas why I may have gained weight?

Pre-Atkins, were you not gaining weight during TOM?

It doesn't mean you gained fat.

If you need to check my meals out Ive attached the fitday link.
SANDRACOLDER02 - free online diet and fitness journal

Feb 6 doesn't look too good. 50 grams of protein is not enough.

And... 8 eggs? There's nothing wrong with eggs, but having more sources of protein would be better.

Most days your carbs are very low. You could add more nutritious vegetables to your menu.

Moving to OWL would not be a bad idea either, imo. Any reason why you're still on Induction?

[sandrac02]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

Hi

thanks for the response. Im still on induction because I wasnt losing any weight. I think now that was because of the cheese, so I cut that out altogether from wc 1st Feb. Plus I felt Id made many mistakes and preferred to start over.

I was advised a week or so ago that as I didnt have too much to loose so to cut down my protein intake to around 20-25%. So thats what I have done. I also now make my own mayo as Hellmans had sugar added. Last week I felt I had lost weight, but this morning was disappointed.

On 6th & 7th Feb those were the days I had to force food down. So eggs were better than nothing.

Before Atkins, yes, I gained weight before TOM and lost it immediately.

thanks

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

Sandra, I hope I won't confuse you with what I'll write below about percentages.

Let's consider a 1700 kcal menu with 65% fat, 25% protein and 10% carbohydrate. In grams, this means 106 g protein.

Let's also consider a 1400 kcal menu, with 65% fat, 30% protein and 5% carbohydrate. In grams, the menu has 105 g protein.

So, by simply changing the number of calories you are consuming, you will be consuming the same amount of protein (in grams), although, in the second example, the percentage of protein is higher (30%) than in the first one (25%).

Macronutrient ratios (that is, percentages) are important for "fueling" ketosis, which is why you want to have a high fat intake. In the case of protein, what is more important is the amount you are consuming, in grams. In a review study published in 2003, Dr. Eric Westman writes:

"As minimal protein supplementation (1 to 1.5 g of protein/kg/d) is necessary to attain nitrogen balance during prolonged fasting, protein intake at this level associated with the LCKD [low carbohydrate ketogenic diet] may sustain positive nitrogen balance and preserve muscle mass."

For the above, he cites a study on body composition of Volek et al. (2002).

See how, for health benefits, they are focusing on grams, not on percentages?

I agree that, for most people, evaluating the quality of their diet in percentages is easier... because that's what we've been used to. For example, check out this nonsense that appears on the AHA website:

"That's why the American Heart Association guidelines urge adults who are trying to lose weight and keep it off to eat no more than 35 percent of total daily calories from fat and less than 7 percent of total daily calories from saturated fat and less than 1 percent of total daily calories from trans fat."

35% of what? 1400 kcal? 2500? Obviously, the grams of fat consumed will change according to the number of calories consumed.

What about trans fats? 1% of 1400 kcal is 1.4 grams. 1% of 2500 kcal is 2.5 grams. It's the grams that matter for good health, not the percentages.

Back to what Dr. Eric Westman wrote in his review paper.

At 5'5" and 133 lbs, you are at a healthy weight already. For you, 1-1.5 grams of protein per kg per day, the minimum required for positive nitrogen balance and lean body mass preservation is 60-90 grams per day.

Remember that this is only a minimum. However, too much protein may stall or slow down weight loss, because part of the protein consumed can be converted to glucose. For low carbers, this is a good thing as it provides a source of glucose for body parts that are dependent on it (one example is red blood cells). Nevertheless, if you consume protein in excess, the body can also create more glucose than required. Assuming you are not overeating, this "extra" glucose will be used for (part of the) fuel, instead of fat. This is why too much protein can interfere with fat burning.

If I were you, I would keep my protein intake in the 70-90 grams range and, if necessary, adjust from there. If you are hungry even though you are not undereating calories and fat, then you might need to increase the amount of protein you are eating. With more exercise, your protein intake will likely need to be increased a bit, too.

When you posted your menu before, you were consuming an average (over 15 days) of 142 grams of protein. This is why I commented that this might be too much for you... because it meant 2.3 grams of protein per kg.

The comment I made about protein in my previous post here was referring specifically to February 6, when you consumed less than 50 grams of protein. 50 grams is too little.

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

Before Atkins, yes, I gained weight before TOM and lost it immediately.

You will lose the weight this time, too. Just relax about it... it's likely only TOM bloating.

[sandrac02]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

thanks for that. Very interesting reading. It has helped.

X

[2big4mysize]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

your absomin could be distended because of other issues besided body fat too such as gas, so don't be too concerend. did you measure your entire body to see the inches of body fat you have shed from them?

And I agree you have cut your protein way too low to be doing a healthy atkins. Also remeber just cause somebody tells you to cut your proteins to 20-25% that doesn't mean it was atkins correct. Dr Atkins protein amounts are 30%

[liv]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

TOM - does that to me every time. No way I would go on the scale at that time. You sure are a brave one Sandra.

I suggest more variation in your food. If it is a bit overwhelming at first start small. One new recipe a week maybe?

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

And I agree you have cut your protein way too low to be doing a healthy atkins.

I believe you are referring only to February 6, not to the other days. Right? Because on the other days, her protein intake has always been higher than the minimum recommended for a healthy very low carbohydrate diet.

Dr Atkins protein amounts are 30%

That's what was used in most (not all) studies on Atkins. However, we should keep in mind that, for example, the Duke University study had an average caloric intake of only ~1450 calories, with 31.8% of these coming from protein. That's an average of 115 g of protein... for subjects whose average baseline weight was 87 kg (191 lbs)... so 1.3 grams of protein per kg per day. And... 200 lbs is a difference of almost 30 kg (66 lbs) from Sandra's weight.

Sandra also consumes more than 1450 kcal on average (>1650 kcal, actually), so for her protein percentage to be 30%, she would need to consume ~125 grams of protein... which is more than what the 200-lbs people were consuming in the Duke study. As far as I know, there is no research showing that one needs more than 2 grams of protein per kg per day to have a healthy very low carbohydrate diet... or that there is anything unhealthy in lowering protein below 30% (regardless of actual amount in grams).

In fact, Dr. Jeff Volek writes in his review paper from 2005:

"No formal definition of VLCDs exists, but arbitrary levels are defined as <50 g carbohydrate/d or <10% of total energy (4). Most VLCD studies do not control the amount of cholesterol, fiber, or quality of nutrients (e.g., type of fat). This is important because the effects could be enhanced further if, for example, a VLCD were combined with exercise or fiber-rich foods. Food choices compatible with this level of carbohydrate restriction (e.g., vegetables, beef, poultry, fish, oils, nuts/seeds, salads, cheese) generally result in an intake of 60–65% fat and 20–25% protein. Nearly all VLCD studies are among free-living subjects; thus actual intakes are variable and dependent on subject preference and compliance."

I realize that he is not referring specifically to Atkins, but he is not saying anywhere that 20-25% protein is unhealthy. Lowering your protein to less than 30% is not an issue from a health standpoint, as long as there's enough protein (in grams) in the diet. And I would not say that less than 30% protein is not "Atkins correct" as we know successful Atkineers who are eating less than 30% protein.

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

By the way, Sandra, you can check out Regina Wilshire's blog (easy to find online) for more info on protein intake. She is a nutritionist who has been following low carb for years, and she recommends her low carb patients to find their approximate minimum protein needs, in grams, by dividing their body weight in pounds by 2.2. That would translate to a minimum of 1 gram of protein per kg per day.

One rough way to say if you need more protein is to observe if you are hungry soon after a meal. If you are hungry within an hour or so after it, then try adding a little more protein to your next meal, until the "1-hour hunger" disappears.

[2big4mysize]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

I believe you are referring only to February 6, not to the other days. Right? Because on the other days, her protein intake has always been higher than the minimum recommended for a healthy very low carbohydrate diet.

That's what was used in most (not all) studies on Atkins. However, we should keep in mind that, for example, the Duke University study had an average caloric intake of only ~1450 calories, with 31.8% of these coming from protein. That's an average of 115 g of protein... for subjects whose average baseline weight was 87 kg (191 lbs)... so 1.3 grams of protein per kg per day. And... 200 lbs is a difference of almost 30 kg (66 lbs) from Sandra's weight.

Sandra also consumes more than 1450 kcal on average (>1650 kcal, actually), so for her protein percentage to be 30%, she would need to consume ~125 grams of protein... which is more than what the 200-lbs people were consuming in the Duke study. As far as I know, there is no research showing that one needs more than 2 grams of protein per kg per day to have a healthy very low carbohydrate diet... or that there is anything unhealthy in lowering protein below 30% (regardless of actual amount in grams).

In fact, Dr. Jeff Volek writes in his review paper from 2005:

"No formal definition of VLCDs exists, but arbitrary levels are defined as <50 g carbohydrate/d or <10% of total energy (4). Most VLCD studies do not control the amount of cholesterol, fiber, or quality of nutrients (e.g., type of fat). This is important because the effects could be enhanced further if, for example, a VLCD were combined with exercise or fiber-rich foods. Food choices compatible with this level of carbohydrate restriction (e.g., vegetables, beef, poultry, fish, oils, nuts/seeds, salads, cheese) generally result in an intake of 60–65% fat and 20–25% protein. Nearly all VLCD studies are among free-living subjects; thus actual intakes are variable and dependent on subject preference and compliance."

I realize that he is not referring specifically to Atkins, but he is not saying anywhere that 20-25% protein is unhealthy. Lowering your protein to less than 30% is not an issue from a health standpoint, as long as there's enough protein (in grams) in the diet. And I would not say that less than 30% protein is not "Atkins correct" as we know successful Atkineers who are eating less than 30% protein.

She said she lowered her proteins in her OP so i have to honor that statement and believe she lowered her proteins from where she ate them last week. if she didn't actually lower them to the numbers she said she did


The DUKE study was done consluting Dr Atkins so if they had 31% as an average then 20-25 is too low isn't it!
the DUKE study was not induction study They forced the participants to move when they had lost 1/2 their needed to lose weight to OWL and added 5 more net grams of carbs thus for the entire eating plan one would expect the fat% to be lower then the established induction amount. the move for many was made at the 10 week mark and the whole study only lasted 24 weeks.
Regina's protein calculation is the MINIMUM not the max. she stressed that in a topic on onather website when attempting to help folk who were eating that nutrtionally bankrupt kimkins diet figure out how much protein they needed since at the time kimkins had a daily protein limit under what most low carbers would need.

I had the privilige of asking Dr Atkins staff back when he was alive back in 2002 what too much protein was and what low fat was and they said induction is 30% protein and 65% fats and the fats come down as the carbs go up. Other early mods here also ask his people and got the same numbers which were posted in the FAQ and in the induction forum. His people said not to worry if we were a little over during induction because it was nearly impossible to get that 5% from the carbs because we were using net carbs and some had more fiber then others.

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

She said she lowered her proteins in her OP so i have to honor that statement and believe she lowered her proteins from where she ate them last week. if she didn't actually lower them to the numbers she said she did

She mentioned a percentage, not a number of grams. Based only on a percentage, you cannot characterize her protein intake as "way too low to be doing a healthy atkins". To be able to say whether her diet is healthy or not, you would need to know the actual number of grams.

If you read her FitDay entries after January 26 (the day when she was told her protein intake is probably too high), you would see that she lowered her average protein intake from 142 grams per day to 88 grams per day. I think we both agree that 88 grams of protein is healthy for someone weighing 133 lbs, as it translates to 1.52 g/kg/d.

There is one "odd" day, February 6, with 49.3 grams of protein. The protein intake on that particular day (not in general, as your post implies) is indeed too low, as I pointed out.

The DUKE study was done consluting Dr Atkins so if they had 31% as an average then 20-25 is too low isn't it!

It is lower as a percentage, but I wouldn't call it "too low". "Too low" implies either that there is something unhealthy about lowering protein to less than 30% regardless of the number of calories, or that 30% is the only correct way to follow Atkins. The former is not true, based on research, while the latter is not supported by any evidence.

Yes, Atkins Diabetes Revolution does indeed say:

"When the dietary intake of individuals following the ANA has been studied, generally 30 to 35 percent of their calorie intake is protein."

However, the sentence above does not say that 30% protein is what Dr. Atkins recommended. Since DANDR 2002 tells us that we should "eat liberally of combinations of fat and protein" without consuming "excess quantities of protein", it sounds to me as if 30-35% is simply what the individuals whose menus were analyzed happened to consume by eating "liberally of combinations of fat and protein". Maybe it was Dr. Atkins' recommendation for his patients (and he told them to do the math... although that's hard to believe coming from a man who wanted to make our life easier with cups) and he considered anything less than 30% as not being "Atkins correct", but we don't know that. And if 30% was the one and only correct way to follow Atkins, I believe Dr. Atkins would have included this number in DANDR instead of opening the possibility for so many dieters to follow his diet incorrectly.

the DUKE study was not induction study They forced the participants to move when they had lost 1/2 their needed to lose weight to OWL and added 5 more net grams of carbs thus for the entire eating plan one would expect the fat% to be lower then the established induction amount.

That's approximately correct. Subjects were asked to move to the next phase after they had lost 40% of the weight they needed/wanted to lose. Also, the transition to the second phase seems rather brusque and no where in the paper does it say that they added 5 more net carbs. In fact, the study was based on total carbs, not net carbs.

In the paper it says:

"A very low carbohydrate diet (carbohydrate intake <25 g/d) was recommended until 40% of a subject's self-determined target weight loss was achieved (11). The daily amount of carbohydrate was then increased to about 50 g."

(11) is Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution, 1998.

the move for many was made at the 10 week mark

I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion, but I'm curious where you're reading this. I can't find it in the paper.

Regina's protein calculation is the MINIMUM not the max.

I never said it's the maximum. In fact, I even pointed out that 1 g/kg/d (approximately the amount one gets by dividing one's weight in pounds by 2.2 and calling that the number of grams of protein) is the minimum, where minimum is defined as the number of grams per kg per day required for positive nitrogen balance.

Since the OP is eating above the minimum -- now, a little over 1.5 g/kg/d on average -- her protein intake is not "way too low" for her diet to be healthy.

I had the privilige of asking Dr Atkins staff back when he was alive back in 2002 what too much protein was and what low fat was and they said induction is 30% protein and 65% fats and the fats come down as the carbs go up. Other early mods here also ask his people and got the same numbers which were posted in the FAQ and in the induction forum. His people said not to worry if we were a little over during induction because it was nearly impossible to get that 5% from the carbs because we were using net carbs and some had more fiber then others.

You know that, allegedly, Dr. Atkins told the researchers in the Duke study that the limit for pork rinds is 1 cup. So, is eating more than 1 cup of pork rinds not "Atkins correct"? The book doesn't say anything about this.

Another example. We know that Brook was told by the staff at the Atkins Center that one can weigh vegetables instead of using cups during Induction and just make sure one doesn't go over 20 net carbs per day. To quote Brook:

"3 cups of the salad veggies or 2 cups salad veggie 1 cup other veggie or
if you have a food scale, I'd suggest using it instead of using volume measurements.

According to the Atkins Center (before they became Atkins Nutritionals and when Dr. Atkins was runnin' the place) - BOTH methods are completely acceptable and correct"

So what do we do? Do we accept that both methods are correct just because someone was told this by the people at the Atkins Center?

Alas, that's the problem with what someone is told on the phone.

[2big4mysize]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

She mentioned a percentage, not a number of grams. Based only on a percentage, you cannot characterize her protein intake as "way too low to be doing a healthy atkins". To be able to say whether her diet is healthy or not, you would need to know the actual number of grams.

If you read her FitDay entries after January 26 (the day when she was told her protein intake is probably too high), you would see that she lowered her average protein intake from 142 grams per day to 88 grams per day. I think we both agree that 88 grams of protein is healthy for someone weighing 133 lbs, as it translates to 1.52 g/kg/d.

There is one "odd" day, February 6, with 49.3 grams of protein. The protein intake on that particular day (not in general, as your post implies) is indeed too low, as I pointed out.

actually if you read her OP she clearly says she reduced her cals and got her cals from fats not food

Over the weekend I have had to force myself to eat. Basically I have got calories from fat rather than food. Although I managed to eat all my veggies. I have cut down on calores in the last week in the hope that I may loose some weight !

over the weekend would be Feb 6th and 7th not Jan 26th for hose days she had posted a 75% and 81% fat which if one reads DANDR chapter 20 is for the fat fast levels. Her proteins for those days are 49 and 71 grams.
She didn't post about her entire atkins experience eating she posted about cutting down over the weekend to which my reply was directed.

That's approximately correct. Subjects were asked to move to the next phase after they had lost 40% of the weight they needed/wanted to lose. Also, the transition to the second phase seems rather brusque and no where in the paper does it say that they added 5 more net carbs. In fact, the study was based on total carbs, not net carbs.

In the paper it says:

"A very low carbohydrate diet (carbohydrate intake <25 g/d) was recommended until 40% of a subject's self-determined target weight loss was achieved (11). The daily amount of carbohydrate was then increased to about 50 g."

(11) is Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution, 1998.

I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion, but I'm curious where you're reading this. I can't find it in the paper.

From the annals of Internal medicine May of 2004 where Yancy and westbrook published their paper on the study

Low-Carbohydrate Diet

Using a popular diet book published by a lay press and additional handouts, trained research staff instructed participants to restrict intake of carbohydrates to less than 20 g/d (4). Participants were permitted unlimited amounts of animal foods (meat, fowl, fish, and shellfish), unlimited eggs, 4 oz of hard cheese, 2 cups of salad vegetables (such as lettuce, spinach, or celery), and 1 cup of low-carbohydrate vegetables (such as broccoli, cauliflower, or squash) daily. Participants were encouraged to drink 6 to 8 glasses of water daily. When participants were halfway to their goal body weight (determined at the week 10 visit with assistance from research personnel), they were advised to add approximately 5 g of carbohydrates to their daily intake each week until they reached a level at which body weight was maintained. To simulate the practice of the study sponsor, the low-carbohydrate diet group also received daily nutritional supplements (multivitamin, essential oils, diet formulation, and chromium picolinate; for a list of the composition of these supplements, see the Appendix) (6).

adding 5 grams even if they were total and not net is still OWL so the study % are for induction and OWL not just induction levels

[Georgiana]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

actually if you read her OP she clearly says she reduced her cals and got her cals from fats not food

over the weekend would be Feb 6th and 7th not Jan 26th for hose days she had posted a 75% and 81% fat which if one reads DANDR chapter 20 is for the fat fast levels. Her proteins for those days are 49 and 71 grams.

Okay, that's why I asked if you are referring to February 6th or in general. When I wrote about her protein intake being fine, I was referring to the days other than February 6th (I don't think 71 grams of protein is unhealthy). I see we were talking almost about the same thing.

From the annals of Internal medicine May of 2004 where Yancy and westbrook published their paper on the study

Sorry, there's a misunderstanding here. We're obviously talking about different studies. I was referring to Dr. Westman's study that was published in 2002 in the American Journal of Medicine.

Effect of 6-month adherence to a very low carbohyd... [Am J Med. 2002] - PubMed result

the study % are for induction and OWL not just induction levels

That's right, but this should not affect the protein percentage.

Also, to "correct" what I wrote before, since we were talking about different papers... the protein percentage in Yancy et al. (2004) was 26%, not 32.

In Dr. Yancy's study, what happened at the 10-week mark is that subjects were helped to determine their goal weight. It wasn't when most of them moved to OWL. Or at least the paper doesn't say that.

[2big4mysize]

Re: My belt is tighter today ?

your link is to an abstract. do you have the full study?