Calories and CCLL

[attek]

Do calories matter when determining your CCLL? My calories are usually around 1500, but I've noticed a lot more days recently where they are at 1800. According to my fitday report, 1800 is my total daily calories necessary per day. Over the last week, my weight and inches loss appears to have stopped. So I'm wondering - is it possible for me to lose weight at 40g carbs and 1500 calories but not lose weight at 40g carbs and 1800 calories? According to the charts in the book, I have a low metabolic resistance to losing weight. I am still in ketosis according to the Ketostix but we all know that doesn't necessarily mean that weight loss is occurring.

[not2late]

Re: Calories and CCLL

When you add carbs, you should also start decreasing the amount of added fat. This is especially important when you move to the dairy and nut rungs because these foods are high in fat and 1 serving of them can replace a tablespoon or two of added fat (like butter, mayo, salad dressing, cream, sour cream, or the Induction cheeses.)

Also, your real appetite should begin to dictate how much food you are eating. What I mean by real appetite is that if your usual breakfast is 2 eggs and 2 slices of bacon, and you are satisfied after eating 1 egg and 1 1/2 slices of bacon, that's your real appetite being satisfied. Eating beyond that point of satisfaction is eating out of habit or eating because you "have" to eat X number of calories daily and you "have" to eat X calories for breakfast.

With the exception of nuts and dairy, the food categories on the OWL Carb Ladder are relatively low in calories for their 5 net carb serving. So, unless you keep the amount of added fat the same as it was during Induction or you add more fat with each rung, your total calories should lower or stay the same.

[attek]

Re: Calories and CCLL

Okay I have now answered my own question...yes calories ARE important for me in determining my CCLL. I kept my carbs at 40g for the second week in a row and decreased my calories from about 1800 back to 1500 (mainly through no nuts and less cheese). Last week I lost virtuallly nothing and this week well over an inch off my abs and over half an inch off my hips. There are no hormonal issues that should be able to explain this either. So I now know (as I had already suspected) that my CCLL is over 40g as long as my calories stay at or below 1500.

Now here is the situation...I am ready to slow my weight loss down even though I haven't finished determining my CCLL yet. I am thinking that if I lost an inch last week at 40g carbs, it is probably not likely that my CCLL is 45g either. I don't have many more inches to lose, and I don't want to keep losing an inch each week if it takes 4 more weeks to determine my CCLL at 5g increments. I would be under my goal at that point.

I also am very comfortable with Rung 4 and below foods. I am not anxious to introduce new foods into my diet while determining my CCLL. That is two variables, which with my scientific background, strikes me as complicated.

So is it okay to move officially into Pre-Maintenance so that I can use 10g intervals, but stay at the rung level I am at until after I determine my CCLL? I do plan to add all the rungs back in before or during Maintenance, depending on how long it takes to determine my CCLL.

[not2late]

Re: Calories and CCLL

During Pre-Maintenance you lose weight very slowly. Dr. Atkins recommended using a few months to lose the last 5-10 pounds. Also Pre-Maintenance is the training ground for Maintenance Phase because it's the time to figure out what and the amounts of what you can eat without gaining weight. So I wouldn't use it as an "extended OWL" phase.

I would suggest to stick on OWL to find your CCLL. Go up 5 net carbs each week. Once your loss stops, back off by 5 and you have your CCLL. Then you can take your time losing weight or trying out the higher rungs.

[attek]

Re: Calories and CCLL

Maybe you could clarify some additional confusion I have on the issue. It seems to me like my confusion is being caused somewhat by the fact that I don't have much weight to lose, and I am still losing it rapidly.

My main concern is that I may be losing weight too quickly to have time for Pre-Maintenance. I just lost over an inch off my abs in the last week at 40g carbs. I only want to lose maybe 2 or 3 more, no matter what the scale says at that point. I am a little concerned that if my CCLL is 60g carbs, it will take me four weeks to reach that number, and I will be under my goal by that time. Then how would Pre-Maintenance work for me?

Another question about that - in the Pre-Maintenance chapter, discusses finding your CCLL and CCLM again. If I'm finding my CCLL at the end of OWL right before Pre-Maintenance, then why would I need to find it again in a couple more weeks? This is what confused me in the first place as to whether I should maybe move to PM now if I'm going to be finding my CCLL in PM anyway.

I just want to make sure I do things correctly so that I can maintain my goal weight permanently. Last time I made the mistake of staying on OWL until I reached my goal and then I just completely stopped eating low-carb. I am not planning to repeat that mistake.

Thanks in advance for your continuing advice, Megs. I am always impressed by the wealth of knowledge you have at your fingertips for others.

[not2late]

Re: Calories and CCLL

CCML is the Critical Carbohydrate Maintenance Level. That's the level of carbs you can eat without gaining weight. The CCLL is the level of carbs you can eat up to without stopping weight loss.

I'm on Pre-Maintenance right now. My CCLL is 50. I'm up to 60 net carbs daily and I'm not gaining weight. So if I gain weight when I go up to 60 net carbs. Then I know in order to maintain my weight, I can't eat more than 60 net carbs and can't eat less than 50. If I eat more, I'll gain. If I eat less, I'll lose. If I want to maintain, I have to eat between 50-60 net carbs daily, right?

Also, you're still losing during Pre-Maintenance, albeit at a slower rate than OWL or Induction.

You could move to Pre-Maintenance and find your CCLL, but that means you'll be looking for 2 separate values. And as long as you eat at or below your CCLL you'll continue to lose weight faster than you would during Pre-Maintenance.

The other thing about Pre-Maintenance is the 10 net carb Rung Food additions. You might be okay eating 5 net carbs of berries, but 10 net carbs might destabilize your blood sugar and get the side effects of instable blood sugar (cravings, bloating, weight gain, etc.) So you have to factor those possibilities into your final equation.

[attek]

Re: Calories and CCLL

You have really cleared up what the difference is between CCLL and CCLM. It really helps to give a concrete example...thanks. I sort of thought that as long as you ate above your CCLL, you would gain weight. But now I see there is a range of maintenance, and there are two numbers to find.

So I think I see where you're coming from about not using Pre-Maintenance as an extended OWL. What you're saying is that OWL is about exploring that range of carbs up to your CCLL while PM is more about exploring that range of carbs above your CCLL...and then about finding your CCLM? The purpose of each phase is very different and I'm not quite ready to explore above my CCLL yet. That's why you're saying to stay in OWL until I find my CCLL. And I could have problems with quantities of food, so it makes sense to continue at the 5g level increments.

Please correct me if I'm still wrong! It seems like I had a fundamental misunderstanding of what the purpose of each phase actually was.

[not2late]

Re: Calories and CCLL

That's about right.

It's correct you'll stop losing weight if you eat above the CCLL. But the CCML is the level of carbs you can't eat above unless you want to start gaining weight.

[attek]

Re: Calories and CCLL

Thanks Megs. We have lots of discussion on the board about Induction (which I feel pretty knowledgable about compared to a new person) and a nice amount on OWL, but there aren't a lot of Pre-Maintenance discussions. And since I didn't finish OWL properly or even do Pre-Maintenance at all the last time I was on Atkins, that is the area where I really lack experience and knowledge.

I think I am moving into a PM frame of mind...I don't feel the urgency to lose weight like I did at the very beginning of Atkins this time or even the whole way through the diet last time. Now this does not mean I have lost the desire to stay on Atkins or that I am cheating or anything like that. To the contrary. It just means that my focus is changing from losing weight to keeping it off. I know I will finish and I am determined to reach my goal properly so I can maintain it this time.

What else do you think might be different about the mind set or the mechanics of PM versus OWL? I am going to follow your advice and stick with OWL until I find my CCLL. I am pretty sure that sometime within the next month or six weeks I will be ready for PM, and I think it would be helpful to learn as much as I can about it from others' experience.

[not2late]

Re: Calories and CCLL

I'm going through PM (no "S" ) now. It's not too bad, so far. When I was reading the PM chapter, Dr. A listed three ways to do it:

1) Follow the OWL procedure, but add 10 net carbs of the foods rather than 5 net carbs. That seem to work well for the higher rungs because you get a slightly higher portion of those foods

2) Follow your OWL menu, but add 20 net carbs of a food two or three times a week. For example, you add 20 net carbs of pinto beans on Monday (as a part of a chili) to your usual OWL menu, 20 net carbs of oatmeal on Wednesday to your usual OWL menu, 20 net carbs of mango on Friday to your usual OWL menu.

3) "Average out your carb intake for the week. This is work it works: If, for example, your CCLL is 80 grams, you might drop back to 60 grams on Tuesday, then deviate with a beef, potato and carrot stew the following night, pushing up your carb total to 100 grams." Then Dr. A says that the only problem with this is that you might develop blood sugar instability issues due to the carb load of that meal. As an aside, I think this is why people on Induction and OWL blow it, when they "save up" their carbs for dinner or lunch or whatever, rather than spreading the carbs out---their bods can handle the carb load.

I'm doing method #1 right now as I test the PM waters. Maybe when I get closer to goal, I'll try out method #2 and #3 because they both make sense to me and probably will be more how I would eat during Maintenance Phase.

[Saty111]

Re: Calories and CCLL

Wow, this thread is a wealth of knowledge! Thanks to both of you. I'm going to bookmark this for when I start getting to the point of determining my CCLL and CCML!!