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  • My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

    Hi all

    Since joining my local gym, I've aquired a personal trainer. He's really good and definately knows his stuff.
    I told him about Atkins and how I've had great sucess on it, both times around. However he was concerned about the amount of carbs I was eating as I'm on Extended Induction and he's done some research. Here is what he's come back with...

    The longer you stay on a plan like Atkins, the more damage you will do; this is simply down to the starvation effect occurring in your body.

    The over-riding cause of this problem centres around the fact that the carb intake does not meet even the basal requirements of your brain and central nervous system. This means you will have ZERO availability of carbs. This is where I refer to the Krebs Cycle (energy systems within the mitochondria/powerhouse of muscle cells): In order to oxidise fat (eg ‘burn fat’), your body requires a substance called oxaloacetic acid – if you have no carbohydrate, you will have no oxaloacetic acid. Your body must then manufacture carbohydrate from muscle (gluconeogenesis) which means to maintain life, you are eating yourself! This is happening every single minute of every single day.

    As well as causing very gradual but increasing degeneration of muscle and internal organs, the starvation state of your body will mean you will be producing lipogenic enzymes (fat storage chemicals) whilst inhibiting lipolytic enzymes (fat burning chemicals). Your body is fighting everything you do.

    Atkins also completely ignores the beneficial effects of Omega 3s and 6s and the importance of balancing these. There is no guidance on micronutrition, avoiding nutrient binding or improving the GI tract which should all figure in an intelligent and complete eating plan.
    I know I have got a little advanced here – but basically what I am saying is that the Atkins diet is not healthy and not effective. This is true of a lot of diets. Most of you weight you lose comes from the loss of muscle (for every one pound of skeletal muscle you lose, you lose another 4lbs of water held within it), so your lowered metabolism ensures that any results you see on the scale are temporary.

    If you would like me to completely go through a complete Diet Consultation, this takes about an hour and a half and I charge £40 for it. This gives you a structured diet plan (Day One / Day Two format to avoid monotony) and appropriate supplements too, with Carbs, Fats, Proteins balanced to the gram in relation to your current lean mass and specific aims.
    I don’t mean to sound so negative about the Atkins diet but any Nutrition Practitioner would feel the same, and any competent one will be able to explain why. Any questions, please let me know!

    Please can you let me know ur thoughts? I'm abit worried now. I do plan on moving on to OWL when I reach 11 stone. Then I've got 14lbs to go which I guess that I need to lose slowly?! I've only ever been on Induction when doing this WOL as I always thought that I had lots of weight to lose and the book said I could do Induction for up to 6 months safely. So when I get down to 154lbs, I will start to move up the rungs.


    26 yr 5'2 F
    Did Atkins on and off from Feb 2005 until April 2008. Fluctuated between 15 st 1/211lbs and 11 st 1/155lbs.
    On different weightloss programme from 28th May 2008 start weight 14 st 11/207lbs.
    Current weight 10st 3lbs/143lbs.
    Ultimate Goal Weight 9 st/126lbs.

  • #2
    Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

    I know one of the major mods will be here quick as a bunny and I also know that this has been answered before.

    Basically, my dear, he couldn't be more wrong -- yes, you do need carbs, but we get these from veggies at first and other goodies later, not sugar and flour. Remember that Atkins is not a NO-CARB way of eating. If your PT's analysis were correct, a bunch of us would be babbling buffoons at this point, right?

    Also, when you read Atkins, which I'm sure you have, you'll notice that he encouraged us to take supplements, including the Omegas. Besides, with the amount of fish I'm eating, i'm pretty sure I'm golden in that department.

    Well, I'm not the expert in all this -- like I said, someone way more knowledgeable than I will be along shortly.

    Chin up, sweetheart. Look at the wonderful work you have done! Your new picture is proof positive!

    Stacy
    F/45(!?)/5'11"
    Highest Weight: 254
    Current Weight: 248 (7/30/09)
    Lowest Atkins Weight 196
    Desired Weight: unknown, but below 180
    1st Goal: 245

    Don't be afraid that your life will end,
    be afraid that it will never begin.
    sigpic
    Yes, these are wolves. Glorious wolves!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

      LOL LOL seems he forgot to learn his complet energy systems

      okay where to begin I will try to address it all in one post and bust it up. I wish Megs was here today to post all her refereneces too.




      The longer you stay on a plan like Atkins, the more damage you will do; this is simply down to the starvation effect occurring in your body
      The over-riding cause of this problem centres around the fact that the carb intake does not meet even the basal requirements of your brain and central nervous system. This means you will have ZERO availability of carbs. This is where I refer to the Krebs Cycle (energy systems within the mitochondria/powerhouse of muscle cells): In order to oxidise fat (eg ‘burn fat’), your body requires a substance called oxaloacetic acid – if you have no carbohydrate, you will have no oxaloacetic acid. Your body must then manufacture carbohydrate from muscle (gluconeogenesis) which means to maintain life, you are eating yourself! This is happening every single minute of every single day.


      if and only if were were inproperly eating our Atkins would starvation even be a factor. we eat 300% of the recoomeneded daily allowance for protein so no muscle wasting is going on here. the only body cells that can not use ketones for fuel are red blood cells, parts of the retnia and some aread of the brain so your basal amount needed of glucose ( not carbs just glucose) is much lower then old school thought because Ketones occur in 3 molecules and oneof them JUST like glucose is water soluble unlike fatty acids and can cross the blood brain barrier.

      next the human body is very very effecinet at producing glucose as fuel from glycogenesisis ( again not carbs). and glucogeneses using the by prodcuts of fat metabolism glycerol, certain amino acid break downs ( not all proteins can be burnt as fuel in the body) the recreation of glucose from the oxidation of glucose by products. and guess what it takes the body less eneergy to makr then from fats then from carbs.

      the body also produces more energy molecules oxidating fats then it does carbohydrates and it is 3% more efficient doing so too.


      tkins also completely ignores the beneficial effects of Omega 3s and 6s and the importance of balancing these. There is no guidance on micronutrition, avoiding nutrient binding or improving the GI tract which should all figure in an intelligent and complete eating plan.
      I know I have got a little advanced here – but basically what I am saying is that the Atkins diet is not healthy and not effective. This is true of a lot of diets. Most of you weight you lose comes from the loss of muscle (for every one pound of skeletal muscle you lose, you lose another 4lbs of water held within it), so your lowered metabolism ensures that any results you see on the scale are temporary.
      actually it is for every pound of sugar stored in your muscles you lose 4 pounds of water not actual muscle tiisue. Scary guy isn't your trainer.

      UConn acutally tested Atkins vs high carb eating and with specal xray machined measured increase in sletetal muscle mass for fold eating Atkins and losing fat mass

      Actually Dr Atkins has an entire section on those omegas and the ratio of them to each othert in the Atkins for life book which we use after induxction and OWL but in the Essintial oils he has them balanced for you.


      shoot got to go but I will be back later with more for you. if youneed to see glucogeneses use the search cause I've even posted the steps whith all the chemicals and enegry used and produced.

      we can talk about free pool amino acids next too. I love shooting down folk who pretent they know human biology.
      by the book atkinseer

      started 6/1/02 at 313
      goalie 5/04 at 167 with under 15% body fat ADBB Presidents exercise Challenge


      Comment


      • #4
        Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

        See, see, see!!!! I told you someone way wiser than me would show up!!

        AngelStar, you have done a great job -- don't let your PT's misinformation knock you out. Hand him the 2002 DANDR and ask him to read it . . . and then talk to you about whether it's unhealthy! You probably eat more veggies than he does!

        Smoochies, cutie! Take care.

        Stacy
        F/45(!?)/5'11"
        Highest Weight: 254
        Current Weight: 248 (7/30/09)
        Lowest Atkins Weight 196
        Desired Weight: unknown, but below 180
        1st Goal: 245

        Don't be afraid that your life will end,
        be afraid that it will never begin.
        sigpic
        Yes, these are wolves. Glorious wolves!

        Comment


        • #5
          Boy

          Even as a mere laywoman, I still found an inaccuracy in virtually every single line of your trainer's message - not to mention the last paragraph being very telling of where this individual's true interests lie. In other words, Dr. Atkins would have had him for breakfast. lol

          Of course, it will be entirely up to how much you decide to value this gym trainer's medical opinion on your body and how you should and should not eat.
          Sheila, Founder of SugarFreeSheila.com
          5'3", medium-framed & muscular, & maintaining since 2001

          What's allowed on Induction

          My new YouTube Before/After slideshow

          Then: 140+, size 10-12
          Late '98, on top of the Empire State Building



          Now: 109, size 0
          January 2010 - Malta

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

            P.S: But I would have listened to his opinion just to hear the accent!
            Sheila, Founder of SugarFreeSheila.com
            5'3", medium-framed & muscular, & maintaining since 2001

            What's allowed on Induction

            My new YouTube Before/After slideshow

            Then: 140+, size 10-12
            Late '98, on top of the Empire State Building



            Now: 109, size 0
            January 2010 - Malta

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

              Your body must then manufacture carbohydrate from muscle (gluconeogenesis) which means to maintain life, you are eating yourself! This is happening every single minute of every single day

              Absolutely, 100 % valid statement. Your body does break down some muscle as a source of glucose when on a low carb diet and uses fat as another source of energy. Some organs rely on glucose and cannot run efficiently on ketones alone. Don't get me wrong, I believe in low carb diets but with any diet, there are negative aspects and this is indeed one of them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                That being said, Dr. Bernstein has been on a 30 gram/day diet since the age of 12 due to his diabetes and he is an avid runner, entrpreneur, doctor and is in his 70s.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                  Originally posted by 2big4mysize
                  LOL LOL seems he forgot to learn his complet energy systems

                  okay where to begin I will try to address it all in one post and bust it up. I wish Megs was here today to post all her refereneces too.






                  if and only if were were inproperly eating our Atkins would starvation even be a factor. we eat 300% of the recoomeneded daily allowance for protein so no muscle wasting is going on here. the only body cells that can not use ketones for fuel are red blood cells, parts of the retnia and some aread of the brain so your basal amount needed of glucose ( not carbs just glucose) is much lower then old school thought because Ketones occur in 3 molecules and oneof them JUST like glucose is water soluble unlike fatty acids and can cross the blood brain barrier.

                  next the human body is very very effecinet at producing glucose as fuel from glycogenesisis ( again not carbs). and glucogeneses using the by prodcuts of fat metabolism glycerol, certain amino acid break downs ( not all proteins can be burnt as fuel in the body) the recreation of glucose from the oxidation of glucose by products. and guess what it takes the body less eneergy to makr then from fats then from carbs.

                  the body also produces more energy molecules oxidating fats then it does carbohydrates and it is 3% more efficient doing so too.


                  tkins also completely ignores the beneficial effects of Omega 3s and 6s and the importance of balancing these. There is no guidance on micronutrition, avoiding nutrient binding or improving the GI tract which should all figure in an intelligent and complete eating plan.
                  actually it is for every pound of sugar stored in your muscles you lose 4 pounds of water not actual muscle tiisue. Scary guy isn't your trainer.

                  UConn acutally tested Atkins vs high carb eating and with specal xray machined measured increase in sletetal muscle mass for fold eating Atkins and losing fat mass

                  Actually Dr Atkins has an entire section on those omegas and the ratio of them to each othert in the Atkins for life book which we use after induxction and OWL but in the Essintial oils he has them balanced for you.


                  shoot got to go but I will be back later with more for you. if youneed to see glucogeneses use the search cause I've even posted the steps whith all the chemicals and enegry used and produced.

                  we can talk about free pool amino acids next too. I love shooting down folk who pretent they know human biology.
                  Wow, I didn't know know a lot of that! Sure goes against anything I have learned in school.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                    I'm backdid you miss me

                    more 2BIG brain leaking


                    This is where I refer to the Krebs Cycle (energy systems within the mitochondria/powerhouse of muscle cells): In order to oxidise fat (eg ‘burn fat’), your body requires a substance called oxaloacetic acid – if you have no carbohydrate, you will have no oxaloacetic acid. Your body must then manufacture carbohydrate from muscle (gluconeogenesis) which means to maintain life, you are eating yourself! This is happening every single minute of every single day


                    Funny all my stuff on fatty acid metabolism says the rate limiitng chemical is acetyl-CoA carboxylase</I> known as ACC

                    your fellow is a little mixed up there too the oxaloacetic acid in the kebs cycle is regenerated over and over during the aerobic cycle and binds to the 2 carbon end stage molecule of both fatty acid oxidation and the glucose glycolysis cycle . both the sugar and the fatty acid end product needed to enter the Krebs,citic acid or TCA ( all are different names for the same process in the mitochondira) is AcetylCoA a 2 carbon compound. this 2 carbon compound joins with the 4 carbon oxaloacetic acid and makes 6carbon citir acid which reacts at various stages of the reation losing CO2 and ending back as a 4 carbon oxaloacetic acid ready to react with the next AcetylCoA molecule it meets.

                    He leaves out the production of all the body energy during the getting of say an 18 carbon fatty acid to a 2 carbon AcetyleCoA

                    1 mole of an 18 carbon fat yields 146 moles of ATP ( the body power molecule)
                    1 mole of 18 carbon carbohydrates yields 114 moles of ATP as you can see fats give more body energy carbon for carbon.
                    by the book atkinseer

                    started 6/1/02 at 313
                    goalie 5/04 at 167 with under 15% body fat ADBB Presidents exercise Challenge


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                      Originally posted by gazaleh
                      Your body must then manufacture carbohydrate from muscle (gluconeogenesis) which means to maintain life, you are eating yourself! This is happening every single minute of every single day

                      Absolutely, 100 % valid statement. Your body does break down some muscle as a source of glucose when on a low carb diet and uses fat as another source of energy. Some organs rely on glucose and cannot run efficiently on ketones alone. Don't get me wrong, I believe in low carb diets but with any diet, there are negative aspects and this is indeed one of them.
                      actually this is incorrect to for Atkineers. we consume in our diet protein amounts in excess of the amount needed to maintain growth and repair of the body. the excess protein in the body stored as free pool amino acids in organs and muscles along with the excess dietary proteins are the glucose fuel source. And as i said above not all proteins can be made into glucose. one of the amino acids alanine very easily and the pyruvate hydrocarbon from the reaction will react in the glucogenesis cycle but it also takes a great deal of Body energy to make this sugar. Tha body would rather take the 3 molecule not areobically reacted to a 2 stage carbon for that Krebs cycle latate molucule run it throught the Cori cycle and remake glucose for burning in the anaerobic part of the cycle. But again that takes lots of energy

                      And a funny thing it take the leasst amiount of energy for the human body to take the hydrocarbon back bone of body fat better known as glycerol when the triglycerides are factured to make fatty acids for beta oxidation to AcetylCoA and convert that hydrocarbon to glucose. So you are as long as you are controlling your blood sugars and insulin levels eating your Atkins correctly with all the extra protein compared to the UDSA recomended amounts ( a 300% increase in Aktins vs USDA) you will be making muscle not destroying it
                      Last edited by 2big4mysize; November 21, 2006, 07:10 PM. Reason: spelling
                      by the book atkinseer

                      started 6/1/02 at 313
                      goalie 5/04 at 167 with under 15% body fat ADBB Presidents exercise Challenge


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                        I swear, 2Big, I either want to marry you or sit at your knee learning everything you know!

                        Stacy
                        F/45(!?)/5'11"
                        Highest Weight: 254
                        Current Weight: 248 (7/30/09)
                        Lowest Atkins Weight 196
                        Desired Weight: unknown, but below 180
                        1st Goal: 245

                        Don't be afraid that your life will end,
                        be afraid that it will never begin.
                        sigpic
                        Yes, these are wolves. Glorious wolves!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                          anglestar is that enough or do you actually need the chemical reactions too? You know I love to leak the 2BIG brain so let me know I don't want to give you too much info too fast as I have been told I do too often here.
                          by the book atkinseer

                          started 6/1/02 at 313
                          goalie 5/04 at 167 with under 15% body fat ADBB Presidents exercise Challenge


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                            So, 2big, let me see if I can wrap my brain around this one point...

                            There are some organs in our bodies that need glucose and will get it from the vegetables we eat on induction (which, by the way, is equal to the USDA daily recommendations) AND it will create it from the excess protein that we eat. Is that correct?

                            When we overeat the protein, the body will convert that to even more glucose which could cause insulin responses, fat storage, etc?
                            ~Joy

                            Start 1/2/06 Goal 6/11/07 restart 1/2/09
                            268.5/196/185
                            QUIT SMOKING JULY 23, 2006 while on Atkins


                            Just when you think you've eaten enough vegetables...EAT SOME MORE!
                            http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=ride2joy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: My PT's thoughts on our WOL...

                              Wow, 2big you absolutely blow me away with the information you have! feel free to leak anywhere anytime

                              I think I am going to need a couple of days to fully absorb what you imparted

                              Angelstar - if it makes you feel better, I have the full approval of my Dr following the Atkins eating plan, and she is monitoring me as I continue with it.
                              ~Veronica
                              **Persistance not Perfection**

                              Started: 1st Nov 06, Ext. Induction
                              ~ F, 5'8 , SW: 228, CW: 217, GW: 160
                              32" lost and counting!!!!

                              ~New Me in 2007 Challenge: 11/30
                              ~KickAss Triath 18.6/90 miles
                              ~Ab Challenge 550/1550

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