Lack of Appetite

[OBob]

I'm on day 17 now, and finding that my appetite is just not there. Not complaining; I think it's great. But, I'm finding myself having trouble eating enough net carbs, especially on the list of acceptable veggies, so many of which are just really low in net carbs. I've had 9 grams today, and that's only after pretty much forcing myself to eat some veggie soup (broccoli, scallions, mushrooms). Heck, for that matter, beyond the veggie soup, I've only had probably 8 ounces of salmon, 2 Atkins shakes, an ounce of cheese and a handful of rinds today, and I just don't feel like eating any more.

I don't want to go into "starvation mode." But, I also don't think I should be forcing myself to eat when I'm not hungry. Do I need to be concerned about not getting enough carbs? I'm presumably on OWL now, but I don't think I've exceeded 20 grams either of the past 3 days, so for practical purposes, I'm on extended induction.

Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

[Elizellen]

Re: Lack of Appetite

I would imagine that those shakes are filling you up - perhaps cut them out and eat real food instead?

I'm presumably on OWL now, but I don't think I've exceeded 20 grams either of the past 3 days, so for practical purposes, I'm on extended induction.

Being on OWL or extended induction would depend on which foods you are allowing yourself rather than the carb amount.
So if you are eating from the induciton list alone, you are on induction but if you have started to add foods from the OWL list you are on OWL

BTW if you only ate around 10 carbs on your 14 day induction, when you move to OWL and add 5 net carbs of induction-veggies to your previous average carb intake, so your carb count for your first OWL rung would be about 15.

[OBob]

Re: Lack of Appetite

I would imagine that those shakes are filling you up - perhaps cut them out and eat real food instead?
Being on OWL or extended induction would depend on which foods you are allowing yourself rather than the carb amount.
So if you are eating from the induciton list alone, you are on induction but if you have started to add foods from the OWL list you are on OWL

BTW if you only ate around 10 carbs on your 14 day induction, when you move to OWL and add 5 net carbs of induction-veggies to your previous average carb intake, so your carb count for your first OWL rung would be about 15.

Thanks for the response Elizellen.

If I read the first rung of OWL correctly, the first week is just allowing yourself more of what you were allowed on induction. I was very strict on induction, and allowed myself only a splenda-sweetened beverage about once every 3 days. Other than that, I had no sweets. After the first two weeks, I decided to allow the shakes, which are said to be induction-legal (and the net carbs based on carbs-fiber-sugar alcohols actually agrees with the advertised "carbs impacting blood glucose" unlike the bars, which I don't touch), mainly because I just don't have the time/energy to continue cooking every meal. I have to be able to do this in the real world, and therefore some convenience food is going to be necessary. Beyond the shake or two I'm having per day, it's all "real food".

From your post, it sounds like you're saying that it's not necessarily a bad thing to be under the 20 grams. I was a little worried that if I was coming in much under that, I might be risking other health problems. I did force myself to eat some peppers and onions last night, just to get the count up to about 17g for the day. If the consensus is that it's not an issue to be around 10g, then maybe I won't worry so much about it, and just eat as much as I can without feeling stuffed.

I was also a little concerned about the body going into starvation mode. My calorie count last night when I posted was only around 1050 for the day. I think I got it up to about 1600 before I went to bed, but that required eating when I really wasn't that hungry.

Any thoughts on minimum calorie levels and/or minimum net carb levels appreciated. I never considered that this could be an issue. The feeling of not being hungry is, for me, as foreign as Madagascar. Which is cool; I just don't want to end up eating so little that I derail myself with either my body going into starvation mode, or not getting enough nutrients from the carbs.

I haven't weighed this week; trying to ease back on the daily weighing I was doing during the first 2 weeks. But, I do continue to use the Ketostix, and they're darker than ever... so that's providing some motivation.

Cheers,



Bob

[Elizellen]

Re: Lack of Appetite

If I read the first rung of OWL correctly, the first week is just allowing yourself more of what you were allowed on induction. I was very strict on induction, and allowed myself only a splenda-sweetened beverage about once every 3 days. Other than that, I had no sweets. After the first two weeks, I decided to allow the shakes, which are said to be induction-legal (and the net carbs based on carbs-fiber-sugar alcohols actually agrees with the advertised "carbs impacting blood glucose" unlike the bars, which I don't touch), mainly because I just don't have the time/energy to continue cooking every meal. I have to be able to do this in the real world, and therefore some convenience food is going to be necessary. Beyond the shake or two I'm having per day, it's all "real food".

I think you have misread the OWL rules as the first thing we are told to add after the 14 days induction is 5 net carbs of the vegetables we were eating on induction. Take a trip to our OWL forum and read up on the threads at the top of the forum on how to tackle starting OWL.

I looked up the nutrition info for the Atkins Chocolate Delight Shake and see it has

15g protein, 4g fiber, 1g sugar, Excellent source of 24 vitamins and minerals, including Calcium, Antioxidants and B-vitamins, 160 calories, 0g sugar alcohols

Now it probably does have the vitamins and minerals you need but it is far too high in protein for it to be a suitable food on its own.
Akins is a highfat/medium protein/low carb way of eating and for induction the menus suggested in DANDR work out at being 65% fat/30% protein and 5% carbs. I just entered the info for the Atkins chocolate delight Shake and it works out at about 95% protein making a ratio of 0%/95%/5% - nowhere near ideal!!
So if you really want to use these highprotein shakes as one of your protein sources you will need to work out how to add some fat to it or eat alongside it to get those ratios nearer the 65%/30%/5% or the surplus protein might turn into glucose (and then to fat) in your body!

Many of us use a website like www.fitday.com to help us plan our meals in advance and check our ratios are within the recommended ratios.
Try adding a few days of your recent menus and see what numbers you come up with then experiment by altering amounts and foods to see how to get closer to the ideal

From your post, it sounds like you're saying that it's not necessarily a bad thing to be under the 20 grams. I was a little worried that if I was coming in much under that, I might be risking other health problems. I did force myself to eat some peppers and onions last night, just to get the count up to about 17g for the day. If the consensus is that it's not an issue to be around 10g, then maybe I won't worry so much about it, and just eat as much as I can without feeling stuffed.

The 20 carbs are a maximum for induction but on OWL you do need to add 5 net carbs more vegetables to whatever carb average you managed in induction which the shakes are not doing.
I would suggest continuing to try and add more veggies carbs like the onions and peppers and some of the higher carb veggies on the list - brussels sprouts are fairly carby - and also to spread them out across the day rather than have them all at one time. So have some veg with the salmon, and with your snacks too! You can always cook many of the 'salad veggies' to make them seem a smaller quantity and easier to eat.

I was also a little concerned about the body going into starvation mode. My calorie count last night when I posted was only around 1050 for the day. I think I got it up to about 1600 before I went to bed, but that required eating when I really wasn't that hungry.

Any thoughts on minimum calorie levels and/or minimum net carb levels appreciated. I never considered that this could be an issue. The feeling of not being hungry is, for me, as foreign as Madagascar. Which is cool; I just don't want to end up eating so little that I derail myself with either my body going into starvation mode, or not getting enough nutrients from the carbs.

You can up your calories by choosing higher calorie foods - using butter or cream added to your soup will up the fat content too.
Also if you substitute 'real food' for those shakes your calories will increase
But try not to worry too much about calories - concentrate on counting carbs, adding fat if you are not eating enough in proportion to the protein, and get used to listening to your body. Those times you are not hungry and need to eat under the '6 hour rule' choose something with fat/protein and carbs in the right ratios and I am sure you will not go wrong.
I hope this helps

[OBob]

Re: Lack of Appetite

Thanks for the thoughtful response Lizellen,

Couple of things. I use Fitday, and actually have my own spreadsheet that I developed with Atkins' carb information as a supplement. My total fat/carb/protein ratios on a daily basis fall in line with the 65%/30%/5% that's recommended around induction. I'm definitely not worried about that aspect, as I've consistently been in that range since starting, and use plenty of fat.

Your specific numbers on the shakes are off by a bit. The chocolate shakes actually have 15g protein, 9g fat and 5g carbs (1g net carbs after subtracting the 4 g of fiber). So, the ratio is 60% protein/ 36% fat / 4% net carb. Still off the mark if that's all you were eating for the day, but it fits in well with the rest of my menu pretty well.

--

Bottom line, I've been pretty happy with my ratios to date, I'm exercising like a fiend, and I'm turning my ketostix purple. Per OWL rung one, I've stuck to induction-accepted foods, but added the shakes (which are induction-acceptable according to the Atkins label, but not recommended for induction by ADBB... I've had to make a personal judgement call on that).

My primary concern is whether I need to try to exceed a minimum carb intake. I always imagined that I'd have trouble keeping under the max, but the reality right now is that it's a little more difficult to make it up to 25 or even 20 on induction-friendly foods (try doing it on fresh spinach at .4 net grams per cup).

I'm not going to worry about it. I feel healthy, and I'm not lacking for energy. I've tried to focus on some of the higher net carb veggies on the induction list like peppers and onions in order to get the count up without the bulk. I'm probably still only getting 20g per day, but I'm good with that.

Cheers,


OBob (dining on fresh salmon baked with butter and a sprinkling of dill weed)

[changing]

Re: Lack of Appetite

Well actually, since the ratios are based on the actual calories that each macronutrient contributes and not simply the number of grams themselves, then if the shakes have 15g of protein, 9g of fat, and 1g of carbs (that contribute calorically -- i.e., nonfiber), that means that 60 calories are protein (each gram of protein contributes 4 calories), 81 calories are fat (as fat is 9 calories per gram) and 4 calories are carbohydrate (carbs contribute 4 calories per gram like protein). Added together, these equal 145 calories (which is in the rough ballpark of the 160 figure cited on the label). That means that protein contributes 60/145 or roughly 41.4% of the calories, fat contributes 81/145 or roughly 55.9% of the calories, and carbohydrates contribute 4/145 or roughly 2.8% of the calories. I had to round the decimals up or down so these figures don't quite equal 100% (99.8% rather), but you get the picture. They are kinda like 56/41/3 -- fat, protein, carb; not exactly ideal, but roughly in the ballpark for Atkins -- if you added a bit of real whipped cream, it'd be perfect.

[ValidRouge]

Re: Lack of Appetite

OBob, yeah that appetite suppression is powerful isn't it? You can lessen the appetite suppression by adding more carbs in. It was hard for me at first, but what I did was made sure that I ate my veggies first. No meat, cheese, etc. until the carbs were eaten in the form of veggies. This allowed me to get the veggies in which are so important for the fiber and vitamins etc. (Spinach is a great one, by the way).

There are a few threads going right now that address the BMR (basal metabolic rate). This is the number of calories your body burns at rest. If you eat 500-600 calories below this rate, the calorie counting theory is that you'll lose. Don't be surprised if your BMR is alot higher than you might think. As an Atkineer, you don't have to worry about calorie counting....but IMO we do have to make sure that we aren't too far below the BMR, else the body could go into what some call "starvation mode". Just as our bodies retain water when it perceives a 'drought', our bodies will hold onto fat and create as much fat as it can when it perceives a 'famine'. Just a bit of food for thought.