A question about the BMI

[J.R.]

Re: A question about the BMI

I don't think I misunderstood you at all.

My question is: isn't it just as probable that someone of my stature could be healthy if they were lean and toned at the weight of 220 lbs as they would be at a lean and toned 185 lbs?

It is not probable that you would be lean and toned at 220. Goodbyefat27's husband is one inch taller, has clearly been weight training for years, and weighs 10 pounds less.

As for healthy, I'm not really qualified to answer that, but generally the thought is that the higher the weight, the more numerous the health risks (excluding an underweight situation, of course), so at 220 you would not be "as healthy" as you would be at 185.


Here is the bottom line: If you want tone, you have to hit the weights hard to build muscle. I'm not sure exactly what "resistance training" means in this context, maybe it's synonymous with strength training. Either way, the time to start is now, not when you get to your goal, so I applaud you.

[Goodbyefat27]

Re: A question about the BMI

Well my answer to that question would be yes, its very possible. I see it with all of my husbands friends. I guessed their weights 15-20 pounds lower than their actual weights and in some cases it was even greater. Add resistance training, strength training and cardio to your routine and don't put a lot of weight on the scales. My husband use to weigh 255 and has toned down a lot over the past year to two years doing that very thing; you would guess his weight to be 195. Stick with the frame of mind you have right now, I think you are on the right track. Who is to say you cant set your goal to 220 and reevaluate it once you reach that point. I think that the structure of the UFC guys is perfect and in my opinion the most attractive form a man can have! I wish you luck in reaching your desired form!

[J.R.]

Re: A question about the BMI

It is totally possible to have a BMI in the healthy range and be overweight, whereas it is just as possible to have a BMI in the overweight range yet have 10% body fat or less. This is the core of the problem that I have with the BMI.

In bold, you are talking about exceptional cases. Yes, this is one of the main criticisms with BMI that in extreme cases, some athletes in prime condition are indicated as overweight and thus at a health risk. Is there any reason to believe your body falls into this exceptional category? You seem to be hinting that the BMI is a complete crapshoot. I don't think it is. For the majority of the population, it's probably a decent guideline.

In your first clause, I think you actually mean that it's possible to have a healthy BMI and have a high body fat%. True, but again, this is likely exceptional as well.

[msanjelpie]

Re: A question about the BMI

The Body Mass Index (BMI) was created to give people an idea of whether or not they are a healthy weight by using a formula which compares height and weight. Some people, including short women, those who are muscular, and older people, may not get an entirely accurate representation of their health risks using the BMI. BMI is meant to give people a general idea of whether they are at a healthy weight.

I aim to be 1 lb below 'overweight'... for you that would be 194 lbs... I think if you weighed that and had a toned physique, you would look awesome!

My hubby is 5'11" and weighs 174. 1 lb under overweight... However, he is a marathon runner and no one would ever refer to him as overweight... He needs those extra pounds to be able to go the distance...

[Ryan.Stoeppel]

Re: A question about the BMI

In bold, you are talking about exceptional cases. Yes, this is one of the main criticisms with BMI that in extreme cases, some athletes in prime condition are indicated as overweight and thus at a health risk. Is there any reason to believe your body falls into this exceptional category? You seem to be hinting that the BMI is a complete crapshoot. I don't think it is. For the majority of the population, it's probably a decent guideline.

In your first clause, I think you actually mean that it's possible to have a healthy BMI and have a high body fat%. True, but again, this is likely exceptional as well.

JR, those cases aren't as exceptional as you are making them out to seem, nor is it relegated to just the top echelon on pro athletes. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't used athletes as an example at all because it seems to be a major hangup.

It is well within the realm of possibility that a person has a BMI in what would be considered "overweight", yet they have 10% body fat or less. In essence, those extremely healthy individuals would be considered overweight according to the BMI.

I'm not delusional enough to believe that my body, in its current state, falls into that category. To have a body like that takes an incredibly amount of work, but my mom taught me to dream big and that is what I am doing.

I am not saying that 225 lbs is my goal. That would be the extreme high end. What I am saying is that if I were able to exercise and attain my desired body composition, it is well within the realm of possibility that at my height I could be healthy around 210 to 215 lbs, which according to the BMI would put me at overweight.

That is my inherent problem with the BMI. The BMI is a great guideline, no doubt, but it does have its faults.

[J.R.]

Re: A question about the BMI

Ryan,
A male with 10% body fat or less is exceptional. That's pretty rare.

msanjelpie mentioned two other exceptions to the muscle-bound (e.g. athlete) case being older people and short, muscular women. I'm not really aware of any others, but those two don't apply to you. So really the only chance of you becoming an exceptional case is to pack on bodybuilder muscles while simultaneously getting athlete levels of body fat ... and you've already said that neither of those things interest you.

So in my opinion, the BMI guideline would apply to you. It's wishful thinking that 220 would be some "ideal" weight when the BMI says the high side of the range is 195. You might be comfortable at that weight, and unmotivated to drop lower, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on being lean and toned at that weight. Very few 6'2" guys would be, and there doesn't seem to be a reason to believe that you would be one of them.

The good news is that you can update your goal when you reach 220, so this discussion is pretty academic. I took the approach of giving you what I believe is a realistic prediction. Goodbyefat27 is sweet and supportive, hopefully she's right and I'm not.

[Ryan.Stoeppel]

Re: A question about the BMI

JR,
I think we have a disconnect somewhere between us because I not only said I want the body composition of an athlete, I gave a specific athlete whom I am using as a model for myself. There is a vast difference between bodybuilders (those whom I consider to be musclebound) and athletes (those whom I consider to be lean and toned). I do not desire a body like a bodybuilder. I do desire a body like an athlete.

Also, 220 isn't the number I have in mind, I was just using Ben Cohen, who weighs 16 stone 3 lbs, as an example of someone who is, in fact, a physically fit person yet would be considered "overweight" on the Body Mass Index. As I just said, I was thinking more along the lines of 210 to 215.

The one thing I will definitely agree with you on is that this discussion is academic at best. This thread has just led to the tail wagging the dog, which isn't really what I was hoping for. I appreciate everyone's input, as it has been extremely helpful.

[J.R.]

Re: A question about the BMI

Alright, I'll check out of this topic after this post. You're talking about professional athletes as your role model, guys that have trained in the weight room literally since adolescence. Those guys are strong, really really strong, even the fat ones and weaker looking ones. It appears that you believe that these guys don't have developed muscles despite the fact they've beaten out 99.9% of their contemporaries to gain professional status.

You also keep implying that I'm asking you to be a bodybuilder, maybe this is the disconnect. No, I'm not telling you to body build. I'm telling you that "tone" is earned, you don't get tone from simply losing weight. There is not as much difference between a bodybuilder and an athlete as you think when it comes to the work in the weight room. Athletes have to develop their actual skill and they aren't going for a gross state of hypertrophy.

There is no easy way out, if you want leanness, you have to lose the body fat. If you want toned muscles, you have use heavy weights with the intention on building muscle (again, don't confuse this with being a body builder).

Okay, I'm done. I've left the message. I'll check back in with you as you pass BMI 30 as I'm curious about the outcome.

[Slapshot]

Re: A question about the BMI

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I gotta run:

I kind of let go of my BMI infatuation once I read this fact (and since I have tree trunk legs from playing hockey 33/36 of my years and being a catcher for 12 years):

As the researchers point out according to BMI calculations the whole of the English national rugby team would be classed as very-overweight to obese and at high risk of cardiovascular disease along with many other sportsmen.

BMI unreliable when assessing obesity and risk of heart disease

[Ryan.Stoeppel]

Re: A question about the BMI

I'd love to know where you got the impression that I thought professional athletes don't have developed muscles...this is really bothering me. I've never said anything that would give you that impression or lead you to that conclusion. I think your idea of what toned is and my idea of what toned is varies dramatically, which is probably the point of contention.

Nor do I feel that you're asking me to be a bodybuilder...I just think this goes back to the disconnect I just mentioned. When I look at some of the top athletes in the world, ie Michael Phelps or Roger Federer, I don't see muscle heads. I see lean, toned muscular bodies. The difference between their bodies and those of the men competing in bodybuilding contests is, however, a dramatic difference. I desire a lean, sculpted body like Phelps or Federer, not one where my muscles are so big it looks like my skin is about to split in half. That honestly disgusts me.

I've never indicated that I expect to get a lean, toned body just by losing weight. I'm not that ignorant, but I'm confused as to how you ever were under the impression that that was my belief. It takes work, I realize that. It doesn't happen over night.

[Slapshot]

Re: A question about the BMI

I desire a lean, sculpted body like Phelps or Federer, not one where my muscles are so big it looks like my skin is about to split in half.

I'm with you 100% on this, but as I'm not your height, I'm not sure of the answer to this question: Won't you look more like Phelps (6'4", 185 lbs) and Federer (6'1", 177 lbs) at 180 than 220?

[Ryan.Stoeppel]

Re: A question about the BMI

That may very well be true slapshot. Guess we'll have to wait a year or so to find out for sure lol

[Slapshot]

Re: A question about the BMI

Yeah, I'm not good at figuring out what people weigh based on their height, etc. I'm terrible at it. For me, when I was 240, I thought being 193 would be awesome. Well, it is, but there's still room for 25 more pounds of improvement. I think that was one of JR's points, too. I think when you're on the top of the world at 220, 180-200 is just around the corner and you'll likely be motivated to get there. It's all relative, man. I can't wait for you to resurrect this thread in a year and let us know how 220 feels.

[J.R.]

Re: A question about the BMI

Until that time rolls around, let me throw this in since you want to know.

1. Go ahead and just dismiss all possibility of looking like a body building freak. You simply very likely don't have the genetic makeup to look like that, few people do. From The Nautilus Bodybuilding Book by Ellington Darden, PhD (c) 1986:

   Proper training will not make any man into a Mr. America unless he has the genetic potential. Few people have this potential. But proper training will improve anyone's muscular size, strength, shape, and condition. It will do so quickly. But it will not make a mediocre bodybuilder into a world champion. Champions are born more often than they are made.

2. Phelph is an example of a born champion, his physique is unique and perfect for swimming. He also trains daily and claims to eat 8000 kcal, enough food for 4 days for normal mortals. He's been swimming since he was 7 years old, and trains 2 to 5 hours every single day just in the pool. Since 2004, he also weight lifts.
3. Federer has been playing tennis since he was 8 years old. He runs sprints, interval training, and of course hits the weights.

   While he's hardly a muscleman, he spends plenty of time in the gym. "I like lifting weights," says the two-time Grand Slam champion, "but tennis players do a lot of different kinds of exercises- gym, muscle training, sprints; footwork, coordination. I like to mix it up."

These guys are both genetically gifted and are working out daily. Federer competes weekly, so Phelps does more training. Either way, you might not think of them as muscle-bound, but their lean muscular physiques were the results of years of hard training. Can you approach this look? Yes, of course, but how much gym time do you need to do to catch up with their decade+ of training? I'd say if you dedicated your life to it, you'd make a good dent in a year, minimum, best case scenario, and you'd need to be at their weight.

And yes, you did very much cause me to infer that you think these athletes don't work out much, at least not like bodybuilders. I concede the results are vastly different, but not effort put into the training.

Unfortunately for me, Slapshot said it much better with his real stats comparison of Federer's and Phelp's height and weight.

[Elizellen]

Re: A question about the BMI

For example, I have a "dream body" that I am going for and use as motivation. I've got a picture of Ben Cohen, the rugger. He is 6'2 and he weighs 16 stone 3 lbs, which I believe is around 225 lbs. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that he is overweight, but if you went according to the BMI then he would be considered overweight.

I was intrigued by this discussion and googled him



It seems like a good body shape goal to me