Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

[Georgiana]

Induction is at 20 net carbs, and "most" of those should come from Induction vegetables.

Try getting 12-15 net carbs from that list of vegetables ... I bet you'll see results!

This info is actually not from DANDR 2002 (for the newbies, this is the book we go by at ADBB), but from the new Atkins Diet book. The same info also appears on atkins [dot] com.

In DANDR, we are not told to eat 20 net carbs during Induction. Rather, we need to eat "not more than 20 g of carbohydrate". This can mean a total of 15 net carbs.

We eat 3 cups of vegetables during Induction (not 2, 4 or 15... or whatever makes 12-15 net carbs), with over half of our net carbs coming from them. It's not necessary for the carbs to add up to 12-15 net carbs.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: Here is my menu from today

>>This info is actually not from DANDR 2002 (>>

Actually, it is from DANDR 2002.

If you read the Rules of Induction carefully (and the information in the first 10 chapters!), you'll see that Rule # 3 states, "Eat no more than 20 [net] grams of carbohydrates, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

Now ... what is "most" of 20 ... well, it's more than 11, that's for sure!

>>This can mean a total of 15 net carbs.>>

Lots of people interpret the Rule that way ... and they generally find it to be a mistake.

You need the nutrition that 20 net carbs provides ... especially on Induction when you're converting to fat burning mode. Less than 20 net isn't really optimum health.

>> We eat 3 cups of vegetables during Induction>>

And if you count those net carbs, you're not likely to be getting "most" of your daily net carbs from vegetables, I bet!

The "cups" was a visual ... it's a holdover from earlier editions.

Sometimes the proofreading and editing of DANDR wasn't so good!

I, too, use DANDR 2002 ... though I have read the "new" Atkins book.

I don't see a problem with quantifying what "most" actually means ... it's been found to help many people. I've seen that help more people than limiting their eating to "cups" ... and "forcing" them to undereat.

I stand by my comments ... and I'm not going "against" Dr. Atkins 2002! It's what got me to maintenance and keeps me there!

J.

[liv]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

I split the two posts from a thread in menus because I thought that this is a very good discussion to have in a more well travelled forum. Here on ADBB we often have a similar discussion with many new people.

[msanjelpie]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

I think they went with the 12-15 grams thing because a lot of people were just eating 3 cups of lettuce type veggies...

[mitzimarie]

Re: Here is my menu from today

Now ... what is "most" of 20 ... well, it's more than 11, that's for sure!

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Believe me, this has been discussed numerous times, and it always ends with differing opinions. It all boils down to how each person defines "most".

Personally, I agree with Georgiana - in my mind, a quantity that is over half of a certain number, is most. So if we are talking 20g, half of that is 10. So 11g or more would be "most" of 20g. In my mind, anyway.

So, since there is no concrete way to define how much "most" of 20g of net carbs would be, I guess we'll each need to make a decision on what we think it means. As I said, to me, "most" means more than half.

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

"Most" means more than 50% for me too. And for me, "eat no more than 20" means 20 is the maximum you are allowed to eat. It's sort of like a speed limit sign: it says "35 mph" which means you can't go over the posted speed limit, but you may drive at 30 mph or 25 mph.

Dr. Atkins writes that he picked the magic 20 limit because that is the carb level where the vast majority of us get into ketosis. But ketosis can be seen at carb levels of less than 100.

[Georgiana]

Re: Here is my menu from today

Actually, it is from DANDR 2002.

If you read the Rules of Induction carefully (and the information in the first 10 chapters!), you'll see that Rule # 3 states, "Eat no more than 20 [net] grams of carbohydrates, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

Now ... what is "most" of 20 ... well, it's more than 11, that's for sure!

I think we all agree that most of 20 is 11 g or more. But "not more than" means less or equal than, so 15 is <= 20. If someone chooses to eat "not more than" 20 net carbs, then 15 fits this definition and most of 15 would be 8.

Lots of people interpret the Rule that way ... and they generally find it to be a mistake.

You need the nutrition that 20 net carbs provides ... especially on Induction when you're converting to fat burning mode. Less than 20 net isn't really optimum health.

I'm not convinced 20 net carbs is necessarily healthier than 15. I think it's more a matter of good food choices (veggies, but other foods as well), rather a specific number of carbs.

And if you count those net carbs, you're not likely to be getting "most" of your daily net carbs from vegetables, I bet!

That's why one needs to choose nutritious vegetables for those 3 cups, rather than eat 3 cups of lettuce.

I stand by my comments ... and I'm not going "against" Dr. Atkins 2002! It's what got me to maintenance and keeps me there!

Congrats! I don't think what you are saying is against Atkins 2002. Eating 20 net carbs, with 12-15 coming from veggies, can certainly be Atkins Induction. However, as I wrote above, I do interpret what's written in the book as eating 3 cups of veggies during Induction, not 10. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[mizski]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

I think they went with the 12-15 grams thing because a lot of people were just eating 3 cups of lettuce type veggies...

I've been reading this discussion with interest. I'm wondering if Dr. Atkins was trying to make this easier for the general masses with the cups rather than the specific grams. I think his intention was for people to have a variety of veggies from both lists though.

However, we know this is not true with everyone. There are a lot of people who eat just lettuce thinking their weight loss will be faster. Hey, I tried that pre-Atkins and all it did was make me cranky...and probably malnourished. Oh, and I lost NO weight with that little experiment.

Whether it's cups or grams, I think the focus should be on trying to get newbies to eat a variety of veggies from both lists. THAT is the healthy way to go and even though weight loss is very important, this WOE is really all about health.

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

I've been reading this discussion with interest. I'm wondering if Dr. Atkins was trying to make this easier for the general masses with the cups rather than the specific grams. I think his intention was for people to have a variety of veggies from both lists though.

However, we know this is not true with everyone. There are a lot of people who eat just lettuce thinking their weight loss will be faster. Hey, I tried that pre-Atkins and all it did was make me cranky...and probably malnourished. Oh, and I lost NO weight with that little experiment.

Whether it's cups or grams, I think the focus should be on trying to get newbies to eat a variety of veggies from both lists. THAT is the healthy way to go and even though weight loss is very important, this WOE is really all about health.

We all know Induction is rather mindless. It can be done without really thinking at all.

But it IS possible to eat 12-15 net carbs daily from veggies using the 3 cup rule. Check the Veggie Challenge for the ways people get that amount.

During my Induction, I kept lettuce at a minimum and choose to eat the higher carb "salad" veggies and I choose to eat the 1 cup of the "other list". So higher carb veggies like pumpkin, celery root, kolhrabi, artichokes, were frequently on my daily menu. 1 medium artichoke clocks in at roughly 8 net carbs(and it has contains slightly less than 1 cup), 1 cup of jicama has roughly 5 net carbs , 1 cup of mushrooms has about 2 net carbs = 15 net carbs from 3 cups of vegetables.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

But it IS possible to eat 12-15 net carbs daily from veggies using the 3 cup rule. Check the Veggie Challenge for the ways people get that amount.

This is such an important point, Megs! Thanks for bringing it up.

And I'd like to take this opportunity to remind members that the SemiAnnual Veggie Challenge will be taking place in November. So I hope to see many of you there! (yep, a shameless plug to drum up business for my challenge.)

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

There's a tendency to think that Atkins is just eating eggs, meat, meat, meat and more meat. Vegetables are an afterthought (if they are even thought of at all.) We see it here on ADBB all the time: everyone makes so darn sure they are eating their Splenda limit of 3, their 3-4 ounces of cheese (counted as 1 net carb per ounce), their "special category foods", their eggs, their 2-3 tablespoons of heavy cream, their 2 net carbs per serving salad dressing, and their carbed proteins (like bacon, sausage, cold cuts), that they only have enough carbs left for 3 cups of lettuce (clocking in at the most 3 net carbs).

During my Induction I made the veggies my priority because I knew the veggies had to be the majority of the carbs I ate that day. So I picked what veggies I would eat for the day, then I picked the meat/cheese/egg/etc. In other words, my meals centered around the veggie, not the meat, which initially seems contrary to Atkins.

If you make the veggies a priority, you'll never have to worry that you "don't have enough carbs" or "have too many carbs" or "are overeating carbs". You know that for lunch you are having 1 cup of jicama and 1 cup mushrooms and for supper you are having 1 artichoke. That means you have a maximum of 5 net carbs left to eat that day and you have to use them wisely.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

>> But it IS possible to eat 12-15 net carbs daily from veggies using the 3 cup rule.>>

True, it IS possible. However, most people just starting aren't so familiar with counting carbs ... so it's not likely that they are getting 12-15 net carbs from vegetables, period ... regardless of the "cups".

Once one is more familiar with the net carbs of the respective vegetables, one could find oneself eating "only" 3 cups ... and getting enough.

It's all possible!

J.

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

>> But it IS possible to eat 12-15 net carbs daily from veggies using the 3 cup rule.>>

True, it IS possible. However, most people just starting aren't so familiar with counting carbs ... so it's not likely that they are getting 12-15 net carbs from vegetables, period ... regardless of the "cups".

Once one is more familiar with the net carbs of the respective vegetables, one could find oneself eating "only" 3 cups ... and getting enough.

It's all possible!

J.

I think it's also because people "hate" vegetables. Particularly people who have spent their lives primarily eating bland toddler-friendly foods like mashed potatoes, macaroni and cheese or eating like a teenager---hamburgers, french fries, pizza, hotdogs, etc.,--- have a hard time eating those vegetables because they have the mentality of "ewwwwwwwwww, veggies are grosssssssssss! ewwwwwwwwwww!!!!" So they try to eat the blandest and most familiar vegetable to them: lettuce.

The other aspect is that when people hear the word "salad" they automatically think of a pile of lettuce leaves. So they eat a pile of lettuce leaves. Believe me, we see it here on ADBB where posters tell us they have been eating 1 cup of salad and 1 cup of the "other" veggie----only the "other veggie" is something like cucumbers or red peppers, which are on the "salad" list, not the "other vegetable list".

And then there is the third group---the group who think that vegetables are unnecessary on Atkins because Atkins is eating meat, meat, meat, and more meat.

But the folks who actually read the diet and are willing to commit themselves to a healthier lifestyle (and divorce themselves from the diet that made them fat in the first place) eating vegetables other than lettuce isn't a problem from the get-go.

[OzLover]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old &quot;Atkins&quot;

Very interesting thread! I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts.

I hope everyone does join Mitzi for the Veggie Challenge. I will certainly be there! Veggies Rule!!!

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>>things like 'eat 12-15 net carbs from veggies on induction' (when we know DANDR say 'you may eat up to 3 cups of veggies from the 2 induction veg lists');>>

DANDR also says about eating your 20 net carbs that "most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

It says that BEFORE the cups rule (which is most likely a holdover from the earlier editions and the result of bad editing!).

Which is why DANDR can be confusing ... and conflicting!