Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

[liv]

Re: It's not working

No doubt that this eat 12-15 grams of veggies is from the ANA people or somewhere else where they just make up their rules . The book does not mention this at all. Three cups of veggies is the rule and that is what we are going by here. And yes no more than 20 carbs - so 18 would be just cool.

So glad you are feeling better about this Josiebeans. Go girl.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>>No doubt that this eat 12-15 grams of veggies is from the ANA people or somewhere else where they just make up their rules>>

Well, actually, when I studied Rule #3 of the Rules of Induction, I realized that "most" of the 20 net carbs was a number greater than 11.

>>The book does not mention this at all. >>

I'm not sure what you mean by "this". Rule # 3 of Induction is clearly printed in my copy of DANDR and it says, "Eat no more than 20 [net] grams of carbohydrates, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

The clarification of what "most" in Rule #3 means was indeed discussed on the Atkins.com forums in 2004-2005 ... by members, not by anyone at Atkins Nutritionals. It was found to be good advice ... and good nutrition ... and was subsequently incorporated into "rules" that quantified what Dr. Atkins wrote. I don't see how it goes against what Dr. Atkins wrote.

I understand that you choose here to follow the cups rule ...

I've certainly seen a lot more success with people who eat enough vegetables on Induction (and moving forward) than I have with people who limit themselves so strictly to 3 cups ... and by doing so undereat their carbs and their nutrition whereas eating 12-15 net carbs worth of Induction vegetables would work quite well for them.

It's funny ... there's internal discrepancies in DANDR ... such there's two different amounts of cream allowed on Induction ... which is correct?

If someone is eating 3 cups of Induction vegetables ... do they then not count those carbs? If they do count, what if they're only getting 5 net carbs from vegetables? How is that "most"? Or is it really ok to just have 9 or 10 net carbs per day on Induction?

[not2late]

Re: It's not working

No doubt that this eat 12-15 grams of veggies is from the ANA people or somewhere else where they just make up their rules . The book does not mention this at all. Three cups of veggies is the rule and that is what we are going by here. And yes no more than 20 carbs - so 18 would be just cool.

So glad you are feeling better about this Josiebeans. Go girl.

Actually, I think the Atkins.com people "borrowed" that 12-15 net carbs thing from ADBB.

Jimmie can correct me on this, but it was either during the early Vegetable Challenge, that the supervising mods gave the advise that "most" of the daily net carbs means 12-15 net carbs. And it was soon after that, the Atkins.com people adopted the same numbers.

So if they did "borrow" the figures, then Atkins.com didn't base their 12-15 net carb amount on anything scientific---they based it on something they read on the 'Net and was made up by some moderators supervising a veggie challenge.

And believe me, Atkins.com has people reading these sites. We have one ADBB member whose handle is something like "Atkinssalesrepresentative".

[Elizellen]

Re: It's not working

Well, actually, when I studied Rule #3 of the Rules of Induction, I realized that "most" of the 20 net carbs was a number greater than 11.

>>The book does not mention this at all. >>

I'm not sure what you mean by "this". Rule # 3 of Induction is clearly printed in my copy of DANDR and it says, "Eat no more than 20 [net] grams of carbohydrates, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables."

I think she was meaning that the "12-15" carbs from veggies is not mentioned in DANDR, just the 'most' rule..

I understand that you choose here to follow the cups rule ..

Great, it is good that we are all on the same page

It's funny ... there's internal discrepancies in DANDR ... such there's two different amounts of cream allowed on Induction ... which is correct?

The smaller amount is a daily allowance, and the larger amount is an occasional extra which might impede weightloss, as all of the 'Special Category' foods might, so they should be added with caution.
My personal interpretation of the special category allowance is that we are allowed to choose one option from the list, so that is how I did it. (BTW I do know that many others think it means we can have all of the options in one day, so here it is a difference of how we read the wording.)

If someone is eating 3 cups of Induction vegetables ... do they then not count those carbs? If they do count, what if they're only getting 5 net carbs from vegetables? How is that "most"? Or is it really ok to just have 9 or 10 net carbs per day on Induction?

We do need to count all the carbs in the 'up to 3' cups, and as long as we are eating more net carbs of veg from the 2 lists than we are of cream/eggs/sweetener/cheese (counting 1 net carb per ounce of cheese regardless of actual carb counts as in DANDR) then I don't think it can really hurt.

Dr Atkins did suggest adding more vegetable carbs on induction if we were experiencing 'ascent weakness', so eating extra veg to the 'up to 3 cups' in that case would be 'legal' on induction anyway.

As induction is only meant to be for 2 weeks except for those with a lot of weight to lose or who have damaged metabolism, I don't think eating only 9-10 net carbs a day for 14 days would be a problem for most people. Especially as for many of us even 3 cups of lettuce is more vegetables than we ever ate before Atkins

[not2late]

Re: It's not working

I Especially as for many of us even 3 cups of lettuce is more vegetables than we ever ate before Atkins

If eating 3 cups of lettuce is intimidating, then eating 12-15 net carbs of lettuce (about 12-15 cups) would be downright inconceivable for some folks---especially the self-proclaimed veggie haters. I mean, we have people on OWL phase who can't stomach eating 3 cups of Induction veggies and an additional 5 net carbs of them. I think if they were eating 12-15 net carbs of lettuce on Induction and then had to add another 5 net carbs (another 5 cups of lettuce), they would have quit!

However, I don't think I would have had a problem stuffing 15 cups of food into my extended size stomach when I started Atkins. But then, my weight was due to eating huge portions of "healthy foods". Which was why Atkins was a great thing for me----it taught me that the typical 4-6 cup restaurant style salad wasn't a "normal" portion size.

Also, our stomachs are stretchy. That's why people who have stomach surgery for weight loss have to be careful to eat small portions---otherwise, their stomachs will stretch if they don't. So if I continued eating large portions, my stomach would have stayed in its pre-Atkins size. Which means I would have to eat more food in order to feel "satisfied", which means I probably would have hit a stall or would have actually gained weight because I kept stuffing my stomach with 12-15 net carbs of lettuce......

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>>Actually, I think the Atkins.com people "borrowed" that 12-15 net carbs thing from ADBB.

Jimmie can correct me on this, but it was either during the early Vegetable Challenge, that the supervising mods gave the advise that "most" of the daily net carbs means 12-15 net carbs. And it was soon after that, the Atkins.com people adopted the same numbers.>>

Just out of curiosity, when was that early Vegetable Challenge.

And if "12-15 net carbs" is an ADBB thing, then why is the cups rule followed so 'religiously'?

Seems as if there's a disconnect!

[not2late]

Re: It's not working

>>Actually, I think the Atkins.com people "borrowed" that 12-15 net carbs thing from ADBB.

Jimmie can correct me on this, but it was either during the early Vegetable Challenge, that the supervising mods gave the advise that "most" of the daily net carbs means 12-15 net carbs. And it was soon after that, the Atkins.com people adopted the same numbers.>>

Just out of curiosity, when was that early Vegetable Challenge.

And if "12-15 net carbs" is an ADBB thing, then why is the cups rule followed so 'religiously'?

Seems as if there's a disconnect!

You have to remember the Challenges are designed for folks who have difficulties with certain aspects of the Diet. For example, the Veggie Challenge is for folks who are stuck in lettuce-land and can't seem to eat enough veggies to comprise "most" of their daily net carbs. The various exercise challenges are for the folks who need the motivation to exercise. And so forth.

But I think it happened in the very first Veggie Challenge. After the Challenge was over and was reviewed, that was dropped because it didn't follow the 3- Cup rule stated in the book. And it was more of a goal to shoot for rather than a mandate of "You shall eat 12-15 net carbs of veggies daily!!!!" The rational the mods used was if you ate exactly 20 net carbs daily, then at least 12-15 net carbs should come from veggies. But since the rules state you eat no more than 20 net carbs daily,not you eat exactly 20 net carbs daily, then you really can't mandate a 12-15 rule based on the information in the book.

Personally, I ate between 10-15 net carbs daily during my Induction because I didn't use my carbs for Splenda, processed meats (bacon, ham, etc.), prepared salad dressing, coffee/tea, and 1 dozen eggs. I learned as I planned my Induction menues that if I had 4 eggs, 2 tablespoons of heavy cream, 3 Splendas, 6 slices of bacon, a few slices of deli roast beef, 4 tablespoons of salad dressing, and mayo, that would have been about 12 net non-veg net carbs, which wasn't following the rules, because I would only have a max of 8 net carbs to spend on veggies. Since I askewed the processed stuff and ate natural foods, my health didn't suffer---afterall I didn't stuff myself with mono-this or diglycero-that or Red dye 448-22-009918aj6. I ate healthy food.

By the way, the 3 cups of veggies for Induction is mentioned specifically in the book: Chapter 14, DANDR 2002 Subsection: How to do OWL

Second whereas during Induction you ate your protein and fat foods, plus three cups of salad and other veggies (and the special category foods such as avocado, olives and sour cream), OWL allows you much more choice.

So based on that, the presumption is that during Induction your veggies were 3 cups of salad and other veggies and that reinforces/confirms the information given in the Induction chapter.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>> think it happened in the very first Veggie Challenge.>>

As I asked, when was that? What year?

I have a reference to the 12-15 net carbs from vegetables on the Atkins.com forum from November 2005. Since it was stated that the the 12-15 net carbs on the Atkins.com forum was "stolen" from this forum, I was wondering when the first Vegetable challenge actually was.

>>By the way, the 3 cups of veggies for Induction is mentioned specifically in the book: Chapter 14, DANDR 2002 Subsection: How to do OWL>>

Yes, I know. It's also mentioned in the Induction chapter.

The confusion, in my opinion, comes from the fact that Rule #3 of Induction has two parts to it ... which can be contradictory (and thus confusing).

No one is disputing that the cups "rule" is in DANDR.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>>Atkins.com has people reading these sites. >>

I know a person can be a member of more than one forum. Is there a rule here that you can't do that?

>>We have one ADBB member whose handle is something like "Atkinssalesrepresentative">>

Hmmm ... not sure that's proof of anything! I could have a handle that says "QueenofEngland" ... that doesn't make it true!

[RitaCeleste]

Re: It's not working

Well, I hope they are reading these sites! It'd be nice if they would redo some of their products so we could have a friendly shake or bar. They have not done that part yet. I don't check the Atkins site that much because of the not friendly food I can look at there. Well, for me I suppose eating that stuff would be like a smoker switching to ultra lights instead of quitting. It appeals to carb junky in me, it claims I can still be that way and be thin. I like this board because it brought me around to actually changing these things and eating real food. I was stubborn and hard-headed and would argue about this rule or that rule and go WHY! But in the end you can't argue with what works. I've been offended and helped at the same time, so I pretty much stay right here. I surfed other sites, people on them can be just as pushy and punchy as here and not as diet smart.

[not2late]

Re: It's not working

>> think it happened in the very first Veggie Challenge.>>

As I asked, when was that? What year?

It looks like our first VEggie Challenge was in 2007.

I have a reference to the 12-15 net carbs from vegetables on the Atkins.com forum from November 2005. Since it was stated that the the 12-15 net carbs on the Atkins.com forum was "stolen" from this forum, I was wondering when the first Vegetable challenge actually was.

It was never "stated" that it was stolen. I wrote this:

Actually, I think the Atkins.com people "borrowed" that 12-15 net carbs thing from ADBB.

Jimmie can correct me on this, but it was either during the early Vegetable Challenge, that the supervising mods gave the advise that "most" of the daily net carbs means 12-15 net carbs. And it was soon after that, the Atkins.com people adopted the same numbers.

So if they did "borrow" the figures, then Atkins.com didn't base their 12-15 net carb amount on anything scientific---they based it on something they read on the 'Net and was made up by some moderators supervising a veggie challenge

Again, it was based on my recollection of the events. And it is apparent from what I wrote that I'm not 100% sure because I ask the mod in charge of that Challenge for correction.

>>By the way, the 3 cups of veggies for Induction is mentioned specifically in the book: Chapter 14, DANDR 2002 Subsection: How to do OWL>>

Yes, I know. It's also mentioned in the Induction chapter.

The confusion, in my opinion, comes from the fact that Rule #3 of Induction has two parts to it ... which can be contradictory (and thus confusing).

Rule #3 says don't eat more than 20 net carbs, that most of the carbs are to come from veggies and you eat 3 cups of the veggies. For me that means, you don't have to eat exactly 20 net carbs daily. That of the carbs you eat, most of them are veggies and you get those carbs from the 3 cups of the Induction veggies.

As I wrote, I ate between 10-15 net carbs daily in Induction because I didn't eat processed meats, use Splenda, use prepared salad dressings, etc. So following Rule 3, I had a minimum of 12-14 net carbs I could have spend on veggies---which were to be made up of the 3 cups of vegetables.

>>Atkins.com has people reading these sites. >>

I know a person can be a member of more than one forum. Is there a rule here that you can't do that?

Nope. But I've been around long enough to see that if Forum 1 says "you can't eat tomatoes on Induction", that information is eventually repeated here.

And I do hope the Atkins.com people read these sites--because then they'll see how ridiculous the 12-15 net carb veggie rule is when a person can technically eat 12-15 cups of lettuce to satisfy that rule. 12-15 cups of lettuce can feed me, you and at least 3 other people!

>>We have one ADBB member whose handle is something like "Atkinssalesrepresentative">>

Hmmm ... not sure that's proof of anything! I could have a handle that says "QueenofEngland" ... that doesn't make it true!

We have ways of verifying these things.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>>It looks like our first VEggie Challenge was in 2007.>>

So then it would appear that Atkins.com had it first! So it wasn't "adopted" from this site after all.

[jimmie 48]

Re: It's not working

maybe i need to read the entire thread since my name was mentioned. i really don't want to sift through 5 pages, however i'll try to address the part that concerns me.

the veggie challenge was an idea for a semi annual challenge. discussions and ideas were done between the mods in the early part of 2007. the first challenge was in april 2007. it was the brain storm of sillygirl, a challenge that she wanted to run,
but, she had not been involved with planning and carrying out challenges so she asked me if i would do the honors to run the first one. the idea was to get people to eat their vegetables. **** please pay attention to this part****...... then and now, we had/have members who think atkins is all meat and cheese and they spent/spend very little time and energy eating any kind of vegetables and then wonder why they aren't losing, etc. the challenge was an effort to get those members to up their veggie carb counts.

i am hoping that everyone agrees that veggies are indeed a part of atkins, a very important part. as has been quoted from the book, following the rules of induction, rule #3:

Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables.

the quote continues but that is the portion we were trying to press in the challenge.
simply put, if you are eating 20 grams of carbs and most are to come from veggies, it stands to reason that at least 11 grams of the 20 will be from vegetables [those on the allowed list for induction]

all of this was done... the challenge, the amount of veggies carbs per induction, owl, pre-maintenance and maintenance .... before we ever knew anything about what other atkins sites were doing. in fact, i don't think anyone else had such a breakdown, if you want to call it that, till the adbb veggie challenge.

Actually, I think the Atkins.com people "borrowed" that 12-15 net carbs thing from ADBB.

Jimmie can correct me on this, but it was either during the early Vegetable Challenge, that the supervising mods gave the advise that "most" of the daily net carbs means 12-15 net carbs. And it was soon after that, the Atkins.com people adopted the same numbers.

So if they did "borrow" the figures, then Atkins.com didn't base their 12-15 net carb amount on anything scientific---they based it on something they read on the 'Net and was made up by some moderators supervising a veggie challenge

totally true. our numbers weren't based on scientific anything. those that know me best know i am not scientfic. just a simple girl with a simple mind that tells me that if something says "most" then i have to figure that means at least half.

as i remember, and i hope i am remembering this correctly, after we did the first veggie challenge and before we did the second, one of the mods discovered that the ANA had 'adopted' or was using the numbers that we had used in our challenge.

[jimmie 48]

Re: It's not working

>>It looks like our first VEggie Challenge was in 2007.>>

So then it would appear that Atkins.com had it first! So it wasn't "adopted" from this site after all.

thing is, that i know i didn't go to atkins.com or any other site to come up with the numbers that are in the challenge. i'm fairly sure sillygirl didn't either.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: It's not working

>>thing is, that i know i didn't go to atkins.com or any other site to come up with the numbers that are in the challenge. i'm fairly sure sillygirl didn't either.>>

Fine.

That wasn't at question ... it was stated that the 12-15 net carbs from Atkins.com was taken from this website ... and it seems from the chronology that that wasn't true. That was my only interest and point. That's why I asked when the first Vegetable Challenge was.

That's all.

>>totally true.>>

Well ... again ... as Atkins.com (at least the forums) was saying 12-15 net carbs from Induction vegetables in as early as November 2005 (and I have a file with it!), and it was first used here in 2007, then Atkins.com certainly did "not" steal the numbers from ADBB.

I think we're in agreement that Rule #3 does indeed say "most" of the 20 net carbs on Induction should come from Induction vegetables and that "most" of 20 is a number greater than 11.