too much cheese?

[T.M.]

Re: too much cheese?

There's another thread nearby in which the poster noted how nice it is to have a kitchen scale in order to measure portions and get a better understanding of what one is consuming. Measuring portions this way isn't exactly "Atkins", either, but it's a far quicker and easier way of trouble-shooting what's going on in one's diet than a reccomendation to "eat until you're full, but no more".

Even Atkins said that if one eats more than one's caloric requirement (plus the bonus calories that the body needs to burn its own fat), one would gain weight. Standard caloric theory.

Again, if one's non-carb caloric intake is less than that which is required to maintain one's weight, the body's fat and protein will be "burned" to make up the difference, and that means weight will be lost. Increased consumption of cheese (naturally, with a corresponding drop in other food to maintain the same caloric intake) may appear to cause a "stall" in weight loss, but this is only an illusion because feces are not being lost at the same rate as before the increase in cheese.

As long as one realizes what's going on (that it may be necessary for the cheese-lover to wait awhile for the body's new intestine-heavy equilibrium is established), there is no need to panic when one sees weight remaining the same, or even rising a bit.

Of couse, if one starts eating more cheese but not reducing other foods, this might raise total caloric intake above that required to lose or maintain current weight, so, naturally, weight will rise.

The reason I've bothered to post is that I recently had a cheddar cheese stall and my weight fluctuated around what appeared to be a stable weight, even though my caloric intake was still stable and well below my BMR.

Luckily, since starting Atkins (74 days and 37 pounds ago), I use an Excel spreadsheet that I created to monitor my caloric intake, as well as carbs, fat and protein. I weigh all food portions with a digital scale so that I know with a great deal of precision exactly what and how much I'm eating.

My wife and I also have pretty expensive Soehnle bathroom scale that is accurate to + or - 0.2 lb and I weigh myself at the same time each morning just after I get up and "go to the bathroom". The "going to the bathrrom" part is, in the very short term, a very important part of measuring a weight trend, and, again, it is exactly this that changes in diet can affect nearly instantly. If cheese causes feces to take much longer to get through the intestines, that means that weight builds up in the intestines and that increasing weight masks weight loss in other parts of the body. This is precisely what happened to me.

Up until the point that I increased the ratio of "cheese calories" in the exact same caloric intake, my weight was dropping like clock-work. Because I had known about the possiblity of cheese stalling weight loss, and because I monitor my diet as I described above, I didn't panic. After about 9 remarkable days of no weight loss, my weight again began to drop.

I think that others who experience an apparent cheese stall shouldn't panic, either. As long one does not exceed the same total amount of non-carb calories, even eating more cheese, one will eventually start losing weight again.

Please feel free (if not obligated) to ignore everything I've said above and will say in the future.

[mission to lose]

Re: too much cheese?

Please feel free (if not obligated) to ignore everything I've said above and will say in the future.

On the contrary, your posts are very interesting and well written.

[Georgiana]

Re: too much cheese?

Assuming that an appropriate calorie-deficient amount of food is consumed, exactly how can cheese (or non-carb anything else) cause a long-term stall in weight reduction - that is, long-term enough to cause one to reduce cheese consumption?

First of all, cheese is not "non-carb".

As for cheese stalling weight loss... there is nothing magical about 4 ounces. Just like there isn't about 20 net carbs... or 3 tbsp of cream... or 10-20 olives. It is simply what Dr. Atkins observed to work best for most of his patients. There are people who will lose weight eating more than 4 oz of cheese per day... but I also know of people who were slowed down by cheese -- not for a week or two, but for months -- and whose weight loss accelerated when they reduced the amount of cheese they were eating, even though they did not reduce their calories. Actually, for some, even 4 oz might be too much.

Why does this happen? A possible reason is yeast. After eating a lot of sugar for many years, many of us have it without being aware of it. For those with existing yeast issues, cheese is a problem food and can slow down (or stall) weight loss.

Another reason can be a lack of nutrients. 4 oz of full fat "aged" cheese means about 450 calories or more. Excess cheese brings over 100 calories per ounce and too keep calories unchanged, other foods need to go. This can compromise the variety in one's diet. Without variety, it is more difficult to give the body proper nutrition, which can lead to slow weight loss. While cheese is nutritious, it does not have all the nutrients our bodies need.

If poor nutrition is the problem, then one will not stall as long as there is a significant caloric deficit. One would obviously lose weight eating 6 oz of cheese per day and nothing else. However, in my experience, such a caloric deficit is not the case on Atkins for those who are successful long term. With a "theoretical" caloric deficit of only a few hundred calories, the quality of the foods we eat becomes important since eating 1 kcal less does not always translate in losing 1/3500 of a pound.

And forget about cheese for a minute... think about aspartame, for example. Some people are stalled by it even when their calories and carbs stay the same. Without a large caloric deficit, food intolerances can also play a role in slow/no weight loss.

[T.M.]

Re: too much cheese?

And exactly how do yeast and aspartame maintain one's weight over "months" when, otherwise (while maintaining the same calorie deficit), weight would be lost?

[Georgiana]

Re: too much cheese?

And exactly how do yeast

From Chapter 15 of DANDR 2002:

"Although the mechanism that links yeast to a plateau is not well understood, I have observed this to be a problem in many patients, and they had to address it to make progress in their weight loss efforts."

aspartame maintain one's weight over "months" when, otherwise (while maintaining the same calorie deficit), weight would be lost?

Again, this comes from Dr. Atkins' experience with his patients. I'm not sure if the mechanism is known. If it is, I don't remember reading about it.

Maybe you can find something in this study: Is Aspartame Really Safer in Reducing the Risk of Hypoglycemia During Exercise in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes? ? Diabetes Care

I haven't read it myself.

[T.M.]

Re: too much cheese?

Regardless of the exact chemical mechanism, the result logically must be that the number of calories necessary to maintain weight must drop while eating cheese, the yeast doing its thing, or the aspartame doing whatever it is doing.

To elaborate, let's assume that identical twins are on the Atkins diet. They eat the same thing and do the same thing throughout the day They lose an identical amount of weight and at an equal rate.

Now, after this trend has been fully established, a change is made in one of the twin's diet - more cheese is consumed by one twin, and that twin eats less of something else. Both twins continue to eat the same number of calories that they did before one twin's diet was altered.

Even though nothing else changes, the cheese twin now begins to lose weight at a slower rate than the other twin over a period of many months.

Let's say the cheese twin loses 20 lb less than his twin during a one-year period.

What can we conclude from the fiction above? Only one thing. Somehow, through some unknown mechanism, everything else being equal, eating more cheese lowered one twin's metabolic rate.

__________________________________________________ ____

Atkins does not go into great detail about the conditions under which he observed that some patients who ate more cheese had a weight plateau. I think that he also does not say whether he was measuring (weighing) the food that was being fed to people in a controlled environment, or he was just taking people's word for what they were eating (but I might be wrong on that). I think it is essential to know the exact conditions under which he made that observation, especially for anyone who might undertake to study the phenomenon.

Cheese is a very calorie-dense food, and by consuming extra quantities of it (quantities that might in fact only be estimations) one could very easily accidentally go over the total number of calories one should be consuming in order to lose weight. In that sense, cheese is far more potent, or "dangerous" than other lower-calorie foods. (Butter would be another, but I doubt if there are very many people out there who are going to grab a stick of butter to munch on, as they would a piece of cheese.)

As for aspartame, if it has a genuine matabolism-reducing effect, consideration should be given to using it medicinally to "treat" anorexia, help starving people stay alive longer, or reduce the amount of food necessary to keep alive a crew of astronauts who are heading to Mars. (Keep a few packets of aspartame and a lump of cheese in the glove compartment, just in case you get stranded on the highway in a snow storm. If you do get stuck, just sprinkle some aspartame on the cheese and start munching. You'll be good to go for days.)

[Georgiana]

Re: too much cheese?

Atkins does not go into great detail about the conditions under which he observed that some patients who ate more cheese had a weight plateau.

I don't know why Dr. Atkins limited cheese to 4 oz. Stalls might have been a reason... but also better nutrition... hence, better health. Obviously, weight loss was not the only aspect he cared about, as it is not the sole principle behind Atkins.

I think that he also does not say whether he was measuring (weighing) the food that was being fed to people in a controlled environment, or he was just taking people's word for what they were eating (but I might be wrong on that). I think it is essential to know the exact conditions under which he made that observation, especially for anyone who might undertake to study the phenomenon.

Lacking this and the exact reasons for the limit, I believe it is at least cautious to limit cheese to 4 oz instead of reinventing the diet based on what we think to be true. Nutrition does not have the precision of rocket science and there are many things researchers don't yet understand.

In my own experience, while consuming about the same number of calories (~1800 kcal/day... with natural daily variations), my CCLL changes depending on the foods I eat. And while I haven't tested my CCLL properly for rungs 5-8 (I don't care about grains and don't plan to add them back... so I skipped rung 9), I did do this for the lower rungs.

If I eat plenty of vegetables and a few berries, my CCLL is about 65 net carbs. At 60 I have no problems losing as long as about 45-50 net carbs are coming from vegetables. Now if I substitute some of my net carbs from vegetables with diary and/or nuts (I eat unsalted nuts), my CCLL goes down to 50-55.

So, at least for me, it does matter what the source of my carbs is.

[Georgiana]

Re: too much cheese?

Not to give the wrong impression to others reading this thread... for someone with yeast issues, cheese is not the only problem food.