Finding CCLL - Is Ketosis the Key?

[Nutri_Nut]

I posted under another topic regarding advice I received last year as to how to find your CCLL.

I was told from another "place" that I had to continue upping my carbs until I was out of ketosis for an entire week. Then, at that point, I had found my CCLL.

I became frustrated because I never could stay out of ketosis CONTINUALLY for one week - even after a cheat! So I continued adding carbs and started gaining.

Someone here said I found my CCLL when I stopped losing weight. This seems to be more in line with the book. When I pointed this out to the person who gave the other advice, I was told that Dr. Atkins did not make himself clear on this point in the book, and I was to follow the advice to wait until I am out of ketosis for one week.

So now I'm confused.

What has worked for everyone else?

[not2late]

Re: Finding CCLL - Is Ketosis the Key?

I posted under another topic regarding advice I received last year as to how to find your CCLL.

I was told from another "place" that I had to continue upping my carbs until I was out of ketosis for an entire week. Then, at that point, I had found my CCLL.

I became frustrated because I never could stay out of ketosis CONTINUALLY for one week - even after a cheat! So I continued adding carbs and started gaining.

Someone here said I found my CCLL when I stopped losing weight. This seems to be more in line with the book. When I pointed this out to the person who gave the other advice, I was told that Dr. Atkins did not make himself clear on this point in the book, and I was to follow the advice to wait until I am out of ketosis for one week.

So now I'm confused.

What has worked for everyone else?

Egads....

Okay, let's break this down into 2 parts....

There are 2 things you have to do during OWL.
1. Find your CCLL
2. Add on foods to see how your body reacts to them and to vary your eating experience AND to get the vitamins and minerals from those foods.

Finding your CCLL:
You add on 5 net carbs on top of your Induction Carbs by eating an OWL food every other day for 1 week. You then see if that additional food/carb level has stopped your weight loss, if it's brought back any of the blood sugar instability symptoms such as cravings, uncontrolled appetite, etc. This is also where the ketostix can come in handy, because you can either check for ketosis with them or you can monitor the physical signs. If the additional 5 nets didn't cause any weight loss problems and blood sugar instability, then you eat that same food of 5 net carbs everyday for an entire week. Then reevaluate.

For example, you ate and average of 15 net carbs during your Induction. Week 1 of OWL, you eat 5 net carbs of an Induction vegetable, on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. You eat this amount in addition to what you have been eating during Induction. For a total of 20 net carbs on these days. On Saturday you check to see what that 5 extra net carbs did to you. Results: you are still losing weight, your appetite is still under control, you don't have any cravings, the world is wonderful.
Week 2 of OWL, you eat 5 net carbs of that same Induction vegetable everday in addition to what you were eating during Induction. So for week 2, your daily carb count is 20 nets. On Saturday, you review your week. If you're still losing weight, appetite under control, no cravings or any other sign of blood sugar instability, then you repeat the process increasing your net carbs by 5 with one OWL food so that your total net carb for OWL week 4 is 25 net carbs.

Eventually, you'll reach a point where you won't lose weight. So what do you do? The following week you drop back 5 net carbs. That's the level you eat at until you finish OWL. That's your CCLL.

Let's go back to our example. You find that at 50 net carbs, you stopped losing weight. So the following week, you go back to eating 45 net carbs. Your weight loss resumes. You know now that you cannot go over 45 net carbs daily if you want to continue losing weight.

So how does the carb ladder fit into all of this?

The first "rung" on the carb ladder is more of the Induction vegetables----vegetables from both lists. Personally, I hung out on this rung until I found my CCLL, using the vegetables I had already eaten during Induction. The book describes that you can eat a new rung every time you move up 5 net carbs. The problem I had with this was what if the food doesn't agree with you? Then you're stuck trying to figure out if it was the carb level or the food itself causing the problem.

Once you find your CCLL, you can move up the carb ladder, testing new foods out. The worry here is that you have to carefully watch how the foods affect you and if you gain weight or the blood sugar instability symptoms reappear, then drop the food immediately.

Read the stickies in the OWL forum. 2Big contributed greatly to them and her knowledge was gained when Dr. Atkins was still alive and you could call the Atkins Center and speak to one of his nurses(and indirectly to him) to clear up any questions about how to do the diet.

[2big4mysize]

who ever told you you'd be out of ketosis for a wek at your CCLL doesn't understand what Dr Atkins said at all because for the rest of your life on Atkins you will always be burning fats as your primary fuel and making ketones when the slow final step in the aerobic part of the TCA clycle is clogged up with Acytel CoA molecules backing up the system and depriving your body of the ATP molecules it can get more of from the beta oxydation of the fatty acids down to that Acetyl CoA step. Soooooooooo in steos the human body chemist and mixing a little of this and that withy those CoA molecules Poof we get ketones for moving the fuel from that log jammed place to another body part like the heart that loves to burn those ketones for fuel and are not clogged up currently.

you will not be producing enough ketones to be excessive in your blood and spilling over to the urine to be measured on stix at about 50 net carbs according to DR Atkins but you are still making them.

Dr Atkins is very specific as Megs pointed out stoppage of scale weight loss due to eating too many carbs is the CCLL cut off point not loss of color on a stix you peed on.


BAsed on your activitiy levels and your weight loss in your inital 14 day induction you should know your appoxamet CCLL from ther charts in chapter 14 too.
Happy low carbing

[Nutri_Nut]

Not2late,

I thought induction began at 20 carbs?

Also, my weight fluctuates. At the end of one week, I may be up two pounds due to water retention, and then the next week be down four pounds. To me, it doesn't seem like one week is enough time to judge weight loss because of weight fluctuation. Does that make sense?

[Nutri_Nut]

2big4mysize,

This is what I thought, too. But this "person" kept repeating this method to me. I began to wonder if he knew Dr. Atkins personally because he seemed to know something beyond what is written in the book. Whatever the case may be, his method did not work for me.

I'm going to try it the way the book states.

Another problem I have, however, is keeping carb level consistent each day, especially if I eat out, go to a friend's house, or travel.

[2big4mysize]

nutri Nut you will find folk that will tell you at goal in maintenance you stop burning fat too! :yikes :yikes

I love to ask them just what the heck do they think we do with that 50% of our cals as fats if we are not primary fat burners at goal still. yes we burn more carbs to supplement our fat burning load so it isn't as constant but we are still a fat burning being cause we all know if it isn't burned it is stored.

[Nutri_Nut]

What amuses me is those who bash Atkins because of the "harmful" effects of ketosis, yet fail to realize that on ANY diet in which fat is being burned, the dieter will be in ketosis! That makes losing weight on any plan harmful, right?

[2big4mysize]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell them, but every human on earth burns fats and is in ketosis every day of their life while they sleep too.

[not2late]

Not2late,

I thought induction began at 20 carbs?

Also, my weight fluctuates. At the end of one week, I may be up two pounds due to water retention, and then the next week be down four pounds. To me, it doesn't seem like one week is enough time to judge weight loss because of weight fluctuation. Does that make sense?

The way DANDR 2002 is written, 20 net carbs is the upper limit of carbs you can eat during Induction. It was below 20 net carbs that Dr. Atkind found most people were able to get into ketosis. Most people (myself included) averaged 10-15 net carbs during our Inductions. So OWL is the addition of 5 net carbs, which meant for me 20 net carbs.

I'm a slow loser so I know what you mean. I lose inches faster than I lose pounds. For example, this morning I noticed a certain roll of fat was missing from my mid section a couple of weeks ago, my feet lost a width. The good old scale didn't show any weight changes at all.

For folks like you and me, we have to stay on a little bit more and take an average weight. If over a 3 week period, you lose an average of 2 pound with 25 net carbs, then you can add another 5 net carbs the following week.

[Nutri_Nut]

I started out with the latest version of 20 net carbs per day during induction. I was in ketosis after one day.

[not2late]

I started out with the latest version of 20 net carbs per day during induction. I was in ketosis after one day.

Did you slowly drop into low carb when you began or did you move from your "normal" diet to Atkins immediately? I'm asking because our bodies have to use up our glycogen before it converts to a ketogenic machine. Our bodies typically have a 2-3 day supply of glycogen, which is why Dr. Atkins said you usually fall into ketosis/lipolysis on the 2nd or 3rd day of Induction.

[iwritedocs]

I think you may have answered my question about finding my CCLL. But let me confirm. I haven't lost any pounds in several weeks (fluctuating within the same 2 pound range every few days), but the inches are falling. So how do I determine my CCLL when I start adding carbs? Just stay with the extra 5 carb food for three weeks or longer?? besides checking cravings, ketostix, blood sugar spikes, etc? This is the hard part for me that makes me not want to leave induction.

[Nutri_Nut]

I had cut out some refined carbs a week before I started Atkins. So that is probably why I went into ketosis rather quickly.

Wow, I'm craving sugar right now :anger

[2big4mysize]

fight it. DOn't cave to an emotional eat you are stronger and more powerfull then them!!!!!
Drink some water and eat a high fat snack to deepen your ketosis and stabilize your blood sugar. Exercise to use up those hormones.

[not2late]

I think you may have answered my question about finding my CCLL. But let me confirm. I haven't lost any pounds in several weeks (fluctuating within the same 2 pound range every few days), but the inches are falling. So how do I determine my CCLL when I start adding carbs? Just stay with the extra 5 carb food for three weeks or longer?? besides checking cravings, ketostix, blood sugar spikes, etc? This is the hard part for me that makes me not want to leave induction.

According to Dr. Atkins, inches lost represents fat empyting from your cells. So it's a much better indicator of weight loss (ie: fat loss) than what the scale says.

You're in the same boat I am. I went through a 6 month period of no loss by scale, but I lost 3 dress sizes.

You have to go through OWL slowly--taking your time with it. If you lose inches (even 1/4 inches like I sometimes do) then you know you're still losing weight and it's okay to move ahead.

I also use the Blood Sugar Symptom Test in the book to see if something is affecting me. The results of that test are more immediate, relatively speaking, than using the ketostix. For example, when I tried out cantaloupe---I started having food cravings within 1 hour of eating it. The next time I tried it out, I ate it with sour cream---same thing cravings within an hour. So cantaloupe has been dropped from my menu.