If I had it all to do over..........

[T.M.]

Started Atkins-like diet Oct. 17, 2009 (now on day 154); male; about to turn 60; 6'6"; 301\244\225

The sad fact is that I'm now into the diet so long that I don't remember exactly how and what I used to eat before starting the diet. I think that that situation poses serious scientific disadvantages in coming to any conclusion about what did what, other than the great fact that I've burned quite a bit of fat from my body.

For example, I have absolutely no idea how many carbs or calories I used to ingest before I changed my diet! Maybe I was eating 400 grams of carb a day; maybe I was eating 100. Maybe I was eating 10,000 calories a day; maybe I was eating 2000 calories a day. It would have been very good to know those numbers "going in", IMHO. I don't even know how rapidly my weight was changing, if at all!

Complete and utter ignorance. That is no way to start a diet!

Therefore, if I had it all to start over, I would montior activity level, carbs, protein, fat and calories for one month prior to beginning any change whatosever in lifestyle, If one could do this unemotionally and objectively, I think that the accumulated data would give one a very realistic baseline of what's going on in one's body and the direction and RATE OF CHANGE one's body weight is taking, IF ANY (maybe weight stability had in fact been reached, albeit at an unsafe level).

Although I am less certain about it, I also think that one should stop induction the moment one gets into ketosis and go directly to OWL. Although one would not experience the big wieght loss over a two-week period, and the resulting psychological high, I think that physically and psychology adpating to the lower rate of weight loss that one experiences during OWL is better over the long haul if one gets to it as soon as possible.

Fire away.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

>>I also think that one should stop induction the moment one gets into ketosis and go directly to OWL.>>

I would disagree ... Induction is 2 weeks for a reason ... it's about more than just getting in to ketosis ... which happens around the 4th day for many.

Less than 2 weeks doesn't generally allow one to accomplish some of the goals of Induction ... "big weight loss" not being one of them.

2 weeks on Induction seems to be a good time for most.

[liv]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

I sometimes thought the same thing about ketosis. It is not really teaching us limits if our appetite is artifically reduced. But I for one is glad that period does exist because we need to get rid of some habits. Eating in front of the computer, eating when we drive, eating when we watch tv, eating when we are happy, eating when we are sad etc.etc. And ketosis helped me realizes some of my eating mistakes so when I went on OWL and did get out of ketosis I was better prepared to know where I needed to watch out for things.

I think you are doing good TM. Even though you do not have a baseline you will find a new one and settle from that one.

[JaxMama]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

I agree about the scientific approach but everyone comes to this WOL because of an emotional deficit. I personally think Induction is torture but I understand why it's as long as it is and why some folks do it longer than the 2 weeks advised. But it only takes me a day to get into ketosis so I don't think 1 day would have suited me before moving onto OWL.

TM you are doing awesome! Keep it up.

[not2late]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

I can still remember how many carbs I was eating daily before I started Atkins:

My typical menu was low fat and it looked like this:

Breakfast:
2 slices dry whole wheat toast, 1-2 tablespoons fruit jam or a bowl (read 1 1/2 cups oatmeal) with 2 teaspoons sugar. Jam and sugar are fat-free, so they are "healthy"

Mid morning snack:
a piece of fruit (an apple, orange) or a glass of fruit juice

Lunch:
A big veggie sandwich: a whole wheat kaiser roll or pita, stuffed with a sliced whole large tomato, a few slices of cucumbers (or baked zucchini slices, baked eggplant slices), and a half an onion. Once in a while, the sandwich would include a couple slices of deli turkey slices. If I didn't have the veggie sandwich I would have a huge salad (we're talking something that was barely contained in a 1 1/2 quart tupperware container!)---no dressing. Another piece of fruit.

Afternoon snack:
A glass of fruit juice or some crispy baked chickpeas or hummus with a whole wheat pita.

Dinner:
3 ounces of lean meat, like chicken or turkey, or a lean fish. Or sometimes tofu or legumes for protein.
Steammed veg dressed with a tablespoon of olive oil (had to watch the fat you know)
Boiled brown rice or pasta ( 1-2 cups of this, sometimes more.) Or baked/boiled potatoes (again, more than 1 cups worth).

Night snack:
Air popped popcorn (about 3 cups of this) or fruit/fruit juice.

It was a "healthy" diet with minimal fat (animal and vegetable), lots of fruit and veg, whole grains, and minimal animal protein.

[JaxMama]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

What would I eat before?
Sandwiches. Hummus and chips. I loved pita breakfast sandwiches or any breakfast sandwich. Cookies.
Dinner would consist of a protein, rice or boxed potatoes.
Ice cream. Chips & salsa.
I usually would bring in a salad to work though, almost daily.
A diet coke about 1 a day.

Definetly over 100 grams a day. Sugar...way too much.

[liv]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

My day usually started with a chocolate bar (or two). I kind of blew my carb count already before breakfast.

[JaxMama]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

Oh lord, candy bars? Of I used to go to Starbucks a couple times a week for a fat free latte but would get muffins or something. Hmmm, no wonder I was hungry again by 930 am.

[Spring Towry]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

I think the mind set for Atkins is that is in not a "diet" in the sense of the word diet, or what diet means to the general population. For me having used Atkins to take off 130lbs 8 years ago. I was stupid and went back to "regular" eating. I knew I should have gone on maintenance but don't really know why I didn't. This time I am staying on this "life style" forever.I don't want to remember how I ate before, that is what got me in trouble in the first place.

[T.M.]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

>>I also think that one should stop induction the moment one gets into ketosis and go directly to OWL.>>

I would disagree ... Induction is 2 weeks for a reason ... it's about more than just getting in to ketosis ... which happens around the 4th day for many.

Less than 2 weeks doesn't generally allow one to accomplish some of the goals of Induction ... "big weight loss" not being one of them.

2 weeks on Induction seems to be a good time for most.

I think the 2 weeks is prcisely to give people who might have tried other diets with little success a real chance to see some big weight reduction and get the psychological lift and COMMITMENT that that inspires. But, simply put, I think that it does that to far too great a degree.

I sometimes thought the same thing about ketosis. It is not really teaching us limits if our appetite is artifically reduced. But I for one is glad that period does exist because we need to get rid of some habits. Eating in front of the computer, eating when we drive, eating when we watch tv, eating when we are happy, eating when we are sad etc.etc. And ketosis helped me realizes some of my eating mistakes so when I went on OWL and did get out of ketosis I was better prepared to know where I needed to watch out for things.

I think you are doing good TM. Even though you do not have a baseline you will find a new one and settle from that one.

The last time I have been “out of ketosis” was about 150 days ago. Even so, my appetite roared back to life quite some ago. I have no doubt whatsoever that I could eat ½ lb of cheese in one sitting, no problem, and then top it off with a nice 3/4-lb fatty steak, no problem, and not feel like I’m “overeating”. Over time, my brain has had to step in to pull in the reins, and to do that I need the kitchen scale.

One of the great flaws with the theoretical BMR number is that it is a single number WITHOUT the standard deviation which it MUST have had (if it was arrived at empirically). That is, a large group of individuals of the same gender, having the same age, height and weight may in fact have vastly different BMRs, but the average of them all is X calories – the number the BMR calculator, or chart, spits out.

To elaborate, for an average BMR of 2000 calories, maybe the range of BMRs was 1000 calories to 3000 calories. The standard deviation of "the result" may be five or six or seven hundred calories. But the standard deviation is not reported. Nor is it reported exactly how that number was arrived at. Even worse, is it calculated from some massaged "energy-in / mass moved, lifted, slid, etc. / energy-out" equation?

This is why I said that I wish that I had measured what I was doing, eating, what I weighed, what the rate of weight change was, etc., for a month before beginning the change in lifestyle 155 days ago. I would have been able to estimate my very own BMR much more closely than any web site. (Over the past 35 days I have determined that my BMR must be far above what web sites tell me.)

The Atkins diet’s (or Atkins-like diets’) fundamental underpinning is that dramatically lowering one's simple carbohydrate intake and raising one's level of activity is the route to lower body weight (by burning fat) and better health (better blood work, lower BP, feeling of wellness, etc.).

In the Atkins diet specifically, one lowers carbs to max. 20 g for the first two weeks and eats only certain acceptable foods in certain amounts. So for that period of time, at least, no matter what your “statistics” (medical condition or medications being the exceptions) it is a "one size fits all" diet. “Eat until you’re satisfied, but no more.”

Just for the sake of argument, let's just assume that before I started Atkins, I determined that my weight was stable at 301 lbs and I was consuming 5000 calories per day, of which 1600 were simple carbohydrate (400 grams), and that I was jogging for an hour each day and that I lifted weights for 20 minutes.

Is there anyone here who would argue that knowing that information would not be an exceptionally good thing to know BEFORE starting Atkins?

Knowing exactly what’s going on before starting any diet means that one is less likely to resort to “looking things (like BMR) up” after getting deeply into a diet, and then things may not be going according to plan and “I’ve got to do something to get this thing back on track”.

If I knew that important baseline information, I may very well (probably would) have read DANDR in a whole new light. I may have decided to (at first, at least) do absolutely nothing else but dramatically reduce my carbohydrate intake, but keep total calories the same (perhaps by replacing the carb calories with fat calories) to see if that alone would result in ketosis and weight loss.. Etc.

In short, the possibilities that that baseline information affords would be practically endless. It would have been a rock-solid starting point.

I agree about the scientific approach but everyone comes to this WOL because of an emotional deficit. I personally think Induction is torture but I understand why it's as long as it is and why some folks do it longer than the 2 weeks advised. But it only takes me a day to get into ketosis so I don't think 1 day would have suited me before moving onto OWL.

TM you are doing awesome! Keep it up.

I didn’t start dieting because of an emotional deficit. (And I deny that this is denial.) I started dieting in order to lose weight so that I could ride a full-suspension bicycle without breaking it. I was comfortable being overweight, but I cannot deny that I like being lighter better.

I was overweight simply because I was eating waaaay too much carbohydrate. Just like Atkins recommends, I was eating when I was hungry, but I was just eating the wrong stuff.

What I have found to be torture from Day 1 is constantly not knowing that what I am doing is the best, or most effective, thing to be doing. I am getting closer to knowing that now, but, again, if I had done my homework originally, things would have been much much easier.

I can still remember how many carbs I was eating daily before I started Atkins:

My typical menu was low fat and it looked like this:

Breakfast:
2 slices dry whole wheat toast, 1-2 tablespoons fruit jam or a bowl (read 1 1/2 cups oatmeal) with 2 teaspoons sugar. Jam and sugar are fat-free, so they are "healthy"

Mid morning snack:
a piece of fruit (an apple, orange) or a glass of fruit juice

Lunch:
A big veggie sandwich: a whole wheat kaiser roll or pita, stuffed with a sliced whole large tomato, a few slices of cucumbers (or baked zucchini slices, baked eggplant slices), and a half an onion. Once in a while, the sandwich would include a couple slices of deli turkey slices. If I didn't have the veggie sandwich I would have a huge salad (we're talking something that was barely contained in a 1 1/2 quart tupperware container!)---no dressing. Another piece of fruit.

Afternoon snack:
A glass of fruit juice or some crispy baked chickpeas or hummus with a whole wheat pita.

Dinner:
3 ounces of lean meat, like chicken or turkey, or a lean fish. Or sometimes tofu or legumes for protein.
Steammed veg dressed with a tablespoon of olive oil (had to watch the fat you know)
Boiled brown rice or pasta ( 1-2 cups of this, sometimes more.) Or baked/boiled potatoes (again, more than 1 cups worth).

Night snack:
Air popped popcorn (about 3 cups of this) or fruit/fruit juice.

It was a "healthy" diet with minimal fat (animal and vegetable), lots of fruit and veg, whole grains, and minimal animal protein.

My day usually started with a chocolate bar (or two). I kind of blew my carb count already before breakfast.

What would I eat before?
Sandwiches. Hummus and chips. I loved pita breakfast sandwiches or any breakfast sandwich. Cookies.
Dinner would consist of a protein, rice or boxed potatoes.
Ice cream. Chips & salsa.
I usually would bring in a salad to work though, almost daily.
A diet coke about 1 a day.

Definetly over 100 grams a day. Sugar...way too much.

I’ve been retired for 10 years, so my daily eating schedule is literally all over the place.

If I remember right, I started my day with a huge bowl (again, I’d like to know how much) of “All bran” with a “huge” amount of milk, a “huge” amount of sugar, two eggs and “a few” large slices of dark bread.

We have grand kids, so we used to go to MacDonalds frequently. For myself I’d order 2 big macs, a large fries and a shake or ice cream cone or dish of ice cream. Then I’d go home and wash it all down with a “huge” glass of milk.

I used to make home made pasta. I’d eat an absolutely huge plate of spaghetti topped with an absolutely huge amount of commercial spaghetti sauce and parmesan cheese.

In the evenings I would graze on potato chips, Doritos, ice cream sundaes, etc. etc. etc. I also ate a lot of the good stuff, too. Cheese. Meat. Nuts.

How many carbs? I don’t have a clue, but the amount was astronomical.

I would not touch any of the high-carb stuff above with a ten-foot pole nowadays. The important thing is that I don’t miss them one bit. .

As I said, my total daily calories were somewhere between 2,000 and 10,000. I wish I had determined that before starting my Atkins-like diet.

I think the mind set for Atkins is that is in not a "diet" in the sense of the word diet, or what diet means to the general population. For me having used Atkins to take off 130lbs 8 years ago. I was stupid and went back to "regular" eating. I knew I should have gone on maintenance but don't really know why I didn't. This time I am staying on this "life style" forever.I don't want to remember how I ate before, that is what got me in trouble in the first place.

I agree with you 100% about the word “diet”. Everybody has “been on a diet” since the day they were born. No two people eat the same things the same way. But I think it is fair to say that most people – especially overweight people – eat way too much carbohydrate. In this sense, we are different, but I don’t think that that difference labels us as being “on a diet”.

I also did Atkins before and went back to regular, high-carb eating. I’ve seen the result and I won’t do it again.

I must disagree with you about one thing you’ve said, however. I DO want to remember how I ate “before”. I speak for myself when I say if I forget my past, I might very well repeat it.

I have developed a habit of weighing myself every day. The agony and the ecstasy. But I think it’s a very good habit to have. If my weight begins to go up and a lengthy trend, I will take measures to nip it in the bud.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

>>everyone comes to this WOL because of an emotional deficit.>>

Not me.

[mission to lose]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

I agree about the scientific approach but everyone comes to this WOL because of an emotional deficit.

JaxMama-

Could you please explain what you meant about the above statement and the "emotional deficit"? Thanks.

[not2late]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

I’ve been retired for 10 years, so my daily eating schedule is literally all over the place.

If I remember right, I started my day with a huge bowl (again, I’d like to know how much) of “All bran” with a “huge” amount of milk, a “huge” amount of sugar, two eggs and “a few” large slices of dark bread.

We have grand kids, so we used to go to MacDonalds frequently. For myself I’d order 2 big macs, a large fries and a shake or ice cream cone or dish of ice cream. Then I’d go home and wash it all down with a “huge” glass of milk.

I used to make home made pasta. I’d eat an absolutely huge plate of spaghetti topped with an absolutely huge amount of commercial spaghetti sauce and parmesan cheese.

In the evenings I would graze on potato chips, Doritos, ice cream sundaes, etc. etc. etc. I also ate a lot of the good stuff, too. Cheese. Meat. Nuts.

How many carbs? I don’t have a clue, but the amount was astronomical.

I would not touch any of the high-carb stuff above with a ten-foot pole nowadays. The important thing is that I don’t miss them one bit. .

I can guessitmate how many carbs I was eating and it was well over the minimum 200 grams daily. And I know for sure I was certainly eating the 8-11 servings of grains daily and limiting my fat and protein.

The amount of food I was consuming was really over-the-top. But if I didn't eat that amount, my stomach would gurgle and groan like I hadn't eaten in 3 days (eventhough it would really be 3 hours!)

But all is not lost for you. You can always do a mock meal, pour out the amounts of foods you used to eat and measure them. That will give you an idea, at least.

[T.M.]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

.......................
But all is not lost for you. You can always do a mock meal, pour out the amounts of foods you used to eat and measure them. That will give you an idea, at least.

I have a difficult enough time determining with any degree of accuracy what I'm eating today, let alone an average daily intake for the 30-day period prior to my starting my Atkins-like regimen 156 days ago.

For example, if MacDonalds' data about its own meals is to be believed, the meal I described above by itself has 2200 calories and 201 grams of carbohydrate! Now what I might have eaten prior to, or after, that honking meal on those days that I consumed it, I have no idea. How many times would I have eaten that meal in a typical month prior to Atkins? Minimum once per week. Maximum twice per week. But I might be wrong even on that estimate.

I used to drink "at least" (new unit of measure) a gallon of whole milk a week. That's at least 2400 cal and 176 grams of carb per week. But sometimes I drank more than that. And much of that was part of ice cream shakes, whose ice cream contained much sugar and I added much more. (I ate almost a gallon of ice cream a week.)

How many potato chips and doritos did I eat? Not a clue, but sometimes I'd eat "a bag" at a sitting. How big a bag? Not a clue.

See what I mean? I don't have a clue beyond knowing that my carb and cal consumption was an astronomical number. My body may have in fact been a very efficient burner of carbs, .......... or maybe it wasn't.

Again, having such ignorance about what I was eating, and my body's rate of weight change, if any, was no way to start an eating plan.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: If I had it all to do over..........

>>I have a difficult enough time determining with any degree of accuracy what I'm eating today,>>

Why are you having a difficult time?