Pros and cons of refeeding

[2big4mysize]

Our first question is what are the pros and cons of a refeed. I'm not sure who submitted it as it had been processed when I signed in today.

For those unfamiliar with that term it is breaking your Atkins way of eating for a period of time with a high carb eating plan for the purpose of breaking a long stall. After comsuming large amounts of high carb foods for several days you return to a clean induction and all is well in your Atkins WOL at least that is the theory.

When our weight isn’t coming off like we have seen it do in the past we get impatient and frustrated trying to figure out what is wrong with our Atkins. We read the book again and a gain looking for something we are doing wrong. We have seen it work know it works and therefore think something must be wrong with us when the scale and the tape measure don’t move for months at a time. First we tweak our carb levels, the last food group we added, more water, less cals, more cals, more exercise, less exercise, more supplements, etc., getting more and more frustrated as still the metal monster and the tape measure don’t reward our efforts. We post on message boards HELP We reach a point where we get desperate and are willing to try anything somebody who has been successful tells us works. The old timers here will remember the slug :yikes diet Brook suggested for my long stall (which didn’t work either)

And right now one of the more controversial methods being suggested is the refeed. Up until the latest addition of Dr Atkins' New Diet Revolution came out this was one of the methods Dr Atkins suggested for breaking a long stall. He cautioned the reader that they would lose all health benefits gained from low carb eating while doing it but that was the only warning. The pros were you would trick your system and satisfy any high carb wantings you had at the same time. It sounded too good to be true. Dr Atkins and his staff based on their knowledge of scientific studies dealing with this and with Atkins low carbers using it removed it along with another controversial stall buster in the current editions.


From a biochemical standpoint the theory was it would allow the enzymes and precursor chemicals in the body that were currently occupied with the massive amounts of fats being used for energy to be released from burning the fats and when you came back to Atkins they would be there ready to go again. It would dampen the effects of the chemicals in the body saying your body was in danger from lack of food. People currently are fixating on one chemical in this group, a fat cell hormone called Leptin, as the baddy needing correction through this method of stall busting. As fat cells get bigger they make more of it from triglycerides and as they get smaller they make less of it. And since it is a lesser known chemical in our bodies and one known way to alter it is to fill fat cells people fix on a refeed as a means to control this chemical and shut off the negative effects of having a low amount. There are other suspected regulator means in the body to control it, but we won’t go into those here.

Unfortunately Leptin isn’t the only chemical in the body affected by loading up on carbohydrates. Blood sugar levels soar during this time too as low carb bodies spike blood sugar from the flooding of their system with glucose. Some will say yes but we don't eat glucose we eat complex carbs but the human body processes all carbs by means of chemical reactions to processes them to glucose for energy. Any time blood glucose goes over 160 damage occurs in the human body, period. So is tricking the body chemicals worth damaging small blood vessels, and nerve endings? That is one aspect of refeed damage no one promoting it tells folk about.

Then there are those darn neurotransmitters. Our bodies subconsciously act as chemists and know what foods we eat mimic temporarily the effects of neurotransmitter through the chemical reaction caused by their ingestion and refeeds revive many of those memories. We have a vast store house of foods we know will calm us, lift our moods, energize us, make us happy, etc and we are armed and know hoe to use them. Things a low carber fought heroically during induction and the early days of their Atkins to suppress. With the refeed the sleeping tiger has been awakened and our minds know it is there for the taking. The difference between coming back to Atkins after a cheat (and lets face it a refeed is nothing more then a cheat even if it was planned) is unlike our original induction which was virgin territory for our bodies our minds now know they have not found a low carb food that mimics those neurochemicals so the struggle starts.The side effects of Ketosis is the only thing we have going for us in that department. The clear headedness we all felt after a few days on Atkins was those carb created brain transmitters high levels returning to our normal levels.

Those that used food as a comforter and are emotional eaters (and lets face it the majority of us obese folks are) are the ones who will have the most trouble coming back to a clean Atkins WOE after a refeed because of this. Folks that simply were overweight because they ate wrong and don’t have any psychological attachments to foods will have the least problems. This is one of the reasons folks who were tremendously successful Atkins losers fall off the wagon completely when they cheat and can't get back on. It isn't they aren't trying and want to be heavy again. I know when I first read intros from folks who were saying I did Atkins lost big and quit I never understood how they could or what in the world was wrong with them that they would allow it to happen to them again. Having finally cheated on my Atkins WOE this spring I understand just how hard it is to get back to clean Atkins WOE for us carboholics and emotional eaters. I will be eternally grateful to the members of the board who rallied that Aug evening to convince me a refeed wasn't the way to break my 12 week stall.

The bottom line is even with the leptin level change the refeed causes when we finish the refeed Leptin levels start to drop immediately upon returning to Atkins WOE because we Atkins WOLers don’t store fats as triglycerides unless we are over eating and have an insulin spike to store those dietary fats. And of course as with any change we attempt to make to correct our long stalls if Leptin wasn't the biochemical reason your body isn't losing right now you are right back where you were with some damage done to your body from the high blood glucose.

for those reasons I'd never recommend it to a person even with all the folks posting they did it and didn't have a problem. I wouldn't want to be any part of unleashing that emotional tiger someone has worked so hard to cage. If after doing all the research and understanding the dangers to both your body and your mind you wanted to do it then I'd support you in your efforts to get your Atkins going again. Just as it is our responsibilities as pay it forward Atkineers to educate other Atkineers about the pot holes they will encounter on their Atkins WOL journey (sugar alcohols being a big one) it is also our responsibility to reach out to them when they have jumped into one and help them get back out facing the right direction on their journey to being a smaller healthier version of themselves.

[ex-barbie-doll]

know what? I was this "..." close to trying a refeed.....

I weigh only 2 pounds less than I did in early March :anger

but I will hang in there for a while longer...

thanks too big.. :hug

[Smallerizing]

Wow - a lot of information all in one place about this subject so near and dear to my stomach....uh, I mean heart! I will be watching this as I "weigh" my options.

Dunno why I visited here after all these weeks, or months, but I'm glad I did!!! 2big has been a role model in so many ways for me, as she has to others. Ahoy, Cap'n! :wave

[Betty]

This is very good info. I am so thankful that when I had my stall which was only a little over 3 months, that I hung in there and never gave in to the "refeed" I don't know exactly what broke the stall, but it broke and I reached goal. I have been maintainging now for almost a year. (in Oct. it will be a year maintaince of goal, and in Dec. will be 2 years on this WOE.)

[Naja]

You can reset leptin levels by raising both carbs and calories judiciously for a few days. Use healthy complex carbs like yams, beans, steel cut oatmeal, whole grain bread (choose the expensive organic kind that has absolutely no white flour) and extra vegetables. A little fruit is good also, but don't overdo it. Drop your fat intake; don't be fanatical about it, but generally try to avoid obvious sources of fat (eg, take the skin off your chicken).

Whether your leptin is really depleted or whether the problem is with your leptin sensitivity is an important question. If the problem is with your leptin sensitivity, resetting leptin is not going to help you much if at all.

One of the ways you can reset your body's metabolic setpoint is by taking the drug bromocriptine, which mimicks the action of leptin and bypasses the usual leptin receptors which are likely to be impaired in people who have been overweight for a significant amount of time. You will find the definitive research on bromocriptine for this specific purpose at http://www.bodyrecomposition.com. Bromocriptine is a safe drug with many years of clinical studies behind it, and you should be able to get your physician to prescribe it to you in the small amounts needed to mimick active leptin levels.

Bromo is not a magic diet pill. If you do not diet and exercise you will lose zero weight. All it does is mimick leptin in the brain so that if you are already dieting and exercising, your body will more willingly release fat and stop defending its metabolic setpoint as if you were in a famine.

Before taking ANY drug, you should discuss it with your physician. I don't think that it is a good idea to take any of the "diet pills" on the market as a magic weight loss solution, but if you have a problem with leptin sensitivity or depletion, bromo is a safe way to fix that specific problem. It comes under the category of a legitimate medical fix for a metabolic deficiency, restoring the body to a more normal function. You and your doctor need to make the decision as to whether this is an appropriate thing to do for your body and your health.

[Naja]

If you had the warning signs of carbohydrate addiction before going on Atkins, if you found that Induction really did break previously uncontrollable food cravings, if you could never succeed in losing any weight at all on a low fat high carb diet, if you had episodes of "crashing" blood sugar, you are a very bad candidate for a refeed. Switching back to a high carb diet is likely to return those cravings to you at full strength. A refeed is a potentially dangerous thing, and also it comes with unpleasant side effects.

Bodybuilders and athletes who do a CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet) spend five days in ketosis and carb-up the other two days. They do this not specifically to lose weight, but to create an anabolic environment where they can put on quality muscle without gaining too much body fat. Many tend to report some fairly awful side effects that sound a lot like the Induction Flu, plus being bloated and sick on carb-up days also. A lot of people do not do well on a CKD and end up moving to a TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) with extra carbs ingested right around a heavy workout. A good place to start learning about CKD and TKD is www.bodyrecomposition.com.

Keep in mind that ketogenic diets that involve carb-ups also involve heavy, intense exercise sessions that deplete muscle glycogen. If you carb up and you are not depleting muscle glycogen with exercise, you will be refilling your liver and probably your fat cells as well with excess glucose. I would recommend CKD and TKD to serious hardcore bodybuilders and athletes who are doing very intense workouts to total muscle depletion. I would not recommend these principles to people whose exercise is limited to aerobics or cardio (walking, aerobic dance, elliptical, bicycling, etc). They work best in conjunction with intense anerobic exercise such as weight lifting, strength training or sprinting.

Atkins is an SKD, a standard ketogenic diet, where you remain in ketosis for an extended period of time. This allows you to make a long term metabolic adaptation to burning fat for fuel. This adaptation is not the same thing as ketosis, but it does require you to remain in ketosis for an extended period which will vary with the individual. Many people who use the CKD/TKD principles suggest you will do best on these diets with the least side effects if you remain on an SKD for an extended time, at least several weeks in straight ketosis, before attempting a carb-up or extra carbs around your workouts.

Bodybuilders report that they tend to keep this metabolic adaptation for awhile even after going off a ketogenic diet and moving to a diet that is moderate carb and low fat. Speaking from experience, this kind of diet truly sucks, but it's a good way to continue dropping weight if you've plateaued on an SKD. They raise carbs from healthy complex carb sources only (beans, grains, veggies, fruit, nonfat dairy products), drop fat percentages down to 20% or less and eat a lot of lean protein. This is a monotonous diet consisting largely of meals like a skinless chicken breast with brown rice, beans and broccoli, or water pack tuna out of the can on a piece of whole grain bread with a no-dressing salad. It helps if you like hot sauce.

If you're a dieter who is really stuck, you can learn a lot from the bodybuilding community. They've got it down to quite a science. Watch for good info from the "lab guys" and "lab gals" like Lyle McDonald and Elzi Volk who are writing quality articles with a good research backing. Take the rest with a grain of salt. A lot of the guys in bodybuilding are doing naughty things like anabolic steroids or hardcore "diet drugs" like Clenbuterol or thyroid agents which are not good for long term health. Their techniques are not going to apply to anyone else, even if they work great in conjunction with the dangerous and often illegal drugs these people are taking. Read what the BB community is saying with these caveats in mind, and you can learn a lot even if you are a dieter and not a bodybuilder.

[2big4mysize]

if anybody wants to continue the discussion on weight lifting and exercies refeeds it now has it's own topic http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.c...ic.php?t=46316

Keep in mind those muscle builders are serious in shape low body fat to begin with lifters lacking a supply of body fat for energy that Atkins weight loss WOEers have. The carby eating they do is similar to the eating Atkins maintenance eaters can do if they have increased their ACE or CCLM through intense exercise.

[kebaldwin]

I have heard about this concept where you can do it for short periods of time. Some say no more than 12 hours, some say 24 hours, some say 36 hours. I guess it is suppose to start building your glycogen levels but stop just before it starts converting it back into fat?

I thought Atkins suggested his high fat diet to restart ketosis?

[kebaldwin]

What -- no "Edit" button? Oh Mr. Skank ....

I also heard that you should keep several tricks up your sleeve and rotate them as your body becomes efficient at the new trick -- about once per month or so? InOtherWords -- start a new trick every month so that your bod can't ever settle down.

I also heard that you can measure your body temperature at wake-up to tell if your body has stalled?

[2big4mysize]

kebaldwin


Returning to induction to get your "ketosis" going better is the last stall breaker step Dr Atkins recommends. The first is lowering your carb level to see if you exceeded your CCLL and then lower it again to see if the lower level is the problem. Many folk get sloppy in their measuring and counting. Some conveniently forget those carbs in the foods they don't write down and have exceeded their levels while swearing they are still in range.
currently that is the only dietary stall buster recommended by Dr Atkins in the last book he approved before his death. The high fat, fast fat fast was removed as a stall breaker and the fat fast for metabolically resistant folk was also altered to a lower higher fat level.

You really don't trick your body. You correct a problem that was causing the burning process to once again exceed the intake process.

A lot of folk don't understand the science behind why they get stalled at certain points. We are each running our bodies from day one in a negative calorie range based on our, basal metabolism, diets (appetite control and Atkins Food choices along with the increase in energy it take to get the fats from mouth to blood stream in our digestive systems) and the increase in waste cals (unburned ketones being expelled in our urine, breath, feces and sweat) and the metabolic energy needed to do the increase in our exercise( that's why exercise is a mandatory part of Atkins). If from the first day you were doing Atkins you made no other changed you'd reach a point where your energy in equals your energy out and weight loss will stop. Some folks select from day one the proper negative level to get all the way to goal, most don't and encounter a plateau at which point they need to make a change in some manner to either take in less or burn up more. Some lower their calories other add more exercise to increase their metabolism rate allowing a bigger burn. some add supplements to correct a deficency they have which will allow their ketogenic fuel system to run better.

[canuck]

A few weeks ago, before this forum was started I wrote to one of the head honchos in charge of the CCARBS research program out of :
Albert Einstein College of Medicine
Dept. of Epidemiology and Population Health
Division of Health, Behavior and Nutrition

I am a volunteer in their research project for low carbs. They have a newsletter and ask for questions.

Due to fact some here whom I respected were discussing a re feed and the leptin issue I wrote and asked their opinion as they supposedly teach low carb programs to their clients etc and were educated about it, today I heard back from them and this was their response.




"I've never heard that low carbohydrate diets "deplete" leptin. I believe it's a myth. As far as I know, leptin levels are not affected by diet composition per se. The body's sensitivity to leptin increases with weight loss. Except for a few unusual obese people who have a leptin deficiency, most overweight-obese people have fairly normal amounts of leptin. Leptin levels tend to decrease with weight loss on any diet but because leptin sensitivity improves, overall this is fine. "

thought I'd share this feedback.

[2big4mysize]

good point Canuck it isn't Atkins messing with the leptin production it is any lessining of fat in fat cells that alters the amount produced.


Oh one reason a refeed might work for somebody and not another is if the person has become deficient in a nutrient needed by the body for metabolic processes and they happen to eat foods high in this chemical while doing the refeed they will find when they return to Atkins the deficient condition has been corrected and poof weight loss continues till they become deficient again. Donnie didn't do a refeed but discovered due to a medical condition biotin levels had become extremely low and adding biotin to Donnie's supplements caused a rapid loss of stalled weight. A refeed unless it had contained foods higher in biotin then those Donnie was currently eating would not have corrected this condition nor would any change in carb levels nor calories. This is one reason all the Atkineer old timers stress eating a wide variety of foods eat your veggies and take the supplements your body needs.

[gaelyn]

I'm back

2big, you've stayed with me, you are my mentor! I derail when life sends me lemons and you remind me that "I can" is the real me.

Now , again, " I think I can, I think I can"

Bless you
G