Bittermelon

[SummerLove]

I know it's not on the Induction list of acceptable foods [on the website, anyway], but I was wondering how many carbs it had per melon [without the seeds]? My family is having a bittermelon feast... if it's low in carbs, I'm gonna eat it, since it's so good!

For those who don't know what a bittermelon is: it's a firm shriveled-looking green vegetable that's incredibly bitter [but yummy for me].

[Richt]

No disrespect intented, but if you know its not on the Induction list (and yes the list on these boards IS the correct list of induction foods) why would you consider eating it!? Surely you know how important induction is to this WOE.

You say it tastes good, but a small cheat is one of the worst things that you can do as it could very easily snowball into a bigger one.

Rich

[SummerLove]

I'm so sorry for having a high multi-cultural family! *cough*sarcasm*cough*

Apparently, bittermelon is not even high in carbs.

Con's to bittermelon: NONE. It's low in carbs, it doesn't trigger cravings, it's not a starchy vegetable! It's lower in carbs and calories than BROCCOLI and eggplants and so forth! I don't see how it's a cheat.

What I don't like about Atkins is that it doesn't always cater to international tongues... Although my family may not be of Oriental descent, we live Oriental lifestyles. We speak Oriental languages at home, we eat Oriental foods. Bittermelon is something that we have often.

I considered eating it because I KNEW it was healthy, I KNEW it was low in carbs, and I KNEW it wasn't starchy. I just wondered about the carb count. It's low in calories also.

And no disrespect taken. Sorry, I just had to make it clear I know NOT to cheat.

[pammie]

you are right..atkins is not designed for international tastes...and it is difficult living here in Japan and finding foods to eat. But you still have to follow the list. It has been said many times here...it is not just the carbs! Something can be low carb and have been purposely left off the list for some reason or another. Dr. Atkins spent years researching his diet...and he spent years perfecting his list.

so, whether you like it or not...if you eat of the list it is a cheat...low carb or not.

[SummerLove]

[sigh] Didn't realize that. However, I really can't find anything wrong with bittermelon. It didn't stall my weight loss.

I find it hard to to find things around the house that are induction-friendly... Around my house, we have pei tsai, kohirabi, bittermelon, amaranth, all kinds of choys, komatsuna, okra, bunching onions, etc.

Since I haven't found them yet in the lists [I left my book on the bus... gotta get a new one soon], I don't know if I'll ever be able to eat them! I really do not care for American/European foods. The only thing I from the list above was bittermelon, and komatsuna, which is an oriental mustard spinach, and very limited amounts of bunching onions [they aren't sweet].

I'm going to eat bittermelon anyway... I've made it through a relatively clean induction [with the exception of komatsuna, bunching onions, and bittermelon... but all in all, about 2 cups total], and I kicked my carb addiction.

But hey, "cheating" with bittermelon and other low-carb vegetables low in sugar and high in nutrients is much better than cheating with anything else.

I want a diet that is EASY, and Atkins is relatively easy. My only beef is that it's restrictions makes it a smidge bit harder for those with more international tastes.

Anyway, I haven't had bittermelon since, and I don't think I will have it for a while [I'll save it for the "other veggies" rung of OWL]. Komatsuna stays, though.

[Naja]

I think that there is some room for good common sense here. Dr. Atkins could not reasonably list many of the perfectly good, low carb vegetables that are not commonly found in American markets but are eaten in ethnic cultures around the world. That would have made the Induction foods list a bit ridiculous and unwieldy.

If the ethnic vegetable you are going to eat is in fact comparable in carbs and in glycemic index score to the lower carb American vegetables on the list, I would have to say that it is not a bad thing to eat it on Induction in the place of a more common vegetable with the same carb and GI count. Just count the carbs and make sure it isn't a high glycemic index vegetable. Bitter melon is about equivalent to cucumber if I recall - it's not a melon. It may be in the cucumber family.

Bitter melon is an incredibly healthy low carb vegetable, with all kinds of phytonutrients and healthful properties. One of those properties is controlling diabetes and lowering blood sugar. It appears to have less than 2g of net carbs per cup. I think you'd be missing a good thing by not eating it. It might not be on the approved list that consists only of commonly found North American vegetables, but I would seriously doubt that this omission is deliberate.

I can understand giving advice to stick to the book, but there is such a thing as healthy low carb vegetables from around the world that Dr. Atkins either never heard of or just didn't include on a list that is entirely focused around American supermarkets.

Komatsuna is a mustard green. There is no earthly reason to avoid a mustard green on Induction. The choys are leafy greens in the cabbage family with high fiber and water content and very low carbs. Kohlrabi is also a cabbage. Ethnic variations should not be a major problem - look at the general family the vegetable is from and check for an American equivalent from the same family on the Induction list.

Amaranth is a type of seed and should be avoided on Induction. Unless you mean amaranth greens? Those should be fine.

[SummerLove]

Yes, I meant amaranth greens... I don't really care for them, so it's easy to avoid.

I started getting a bit paranoid about the bittermelon [my mum is making some for tomorrow, was thinking of passing on it] and wondering exactly why it wasn't allowed...

Thanks, Naja! That gives me more variety...

Sorry guys if I sound crass or unappreciative... I really do appreciate your inputs. Well now I know bittermelon is entirely safe. :joy

[Naja]

Something can be low carb and have been purposely left off the list for some reason or another. Dr. Atkins spent years researching his diet...and he spent years perfecting his list.

Then how come the Induction list is focused entirely around produce available in North American supermarkets?

I do not think it would have even been possible for Dr. Atkins to investigate the wide variety of healthful low carb vegetables that are simply not generally available in the US. Nor would it be reasonable to list every ethnic variant in, say, the mustard green or cabbage family. There's stuff that is not on the list not because it would undermine the goals of Induction, but because it just isn't practical to list several hundred possible ethnic vegetable varieties that you can't even buy at a standard supermarket.

If Dr. Atkins had done it that way, instead of the one entry "cabbage" there would have been about fifty subspecies names. The way I interpret the list, if he says cabbage is okay, then its close taxonomic relatives are covered as well. He did not say, "Only this one Brassicaceae species is okay to eat." You can walk into an American supermarket and purchase at least six possible cabbage species, and they're all Brassicaceae and they're all roughly similar in nutritional value. Walk into an Oriental supermarket and you will find some different cabbage species, but they are still all Brassicaceae and still basically the same in carb count. Only the common names are different.

so, whether you like it or not...if you eat of the list it is a cheat...low carb or not.

If you want to be religious and do Atkins by the absolute letter of the book, that's one thing. But I think it's remarkably silly to say you can't have an Asian variant of a mustard green which does not differ appreciably in carb content from the American grown species because it is not specifically named on the list. Same botanical family, same carb count, same vegetable, basically.

I'm reasonably sure that bitter melon is a cucumber variant in the same botanical family. I have worked with a number of different Oriental cucumber variants, and there is nothing in them in terms of carb count or GI index to differentiate them from the American cucumber. Bitter melon is loaded with healthy phytonutrients that have some specific applications that might even be of extra help to low carb dieters.

Cucumber is an approved Induction food, if you measure portions and count carbs. I don't think there is any good reason not to consider bitter melon as a cucumber.

[shawnee]

Bittermelon is absolutely acceptable in induction
1 cup had only 2.3 Grams net carbs, full of fibre too! :ThumbsUp

Also known as Ampalya in the Phillipines bittermelon tea is used by doctors there as a medicine to control blood glucose levels & insulin resistance in Diabetics. There are a wealth of studies which have documented its medicinal insulin resistance lowering & blood glucose level controlling properties. This is one of the problems facing a large percentage of the overweight people doing Atkins. As a former Diabetic I drink the tea reguarly & have it shipped to me from the Philippines.

We also grow it in our garden & usually make traditional soup with it by boiling bones or pork ribs & then garlic & bittermelon or fry it up sliced with scrambled eggs (another tradtional Filipino dish)

If Dr Atkins were alive & looked at Bittermelon he would definitely heartily recommend & approve BitterMelon.

Since it does not often appear on the US table its not covered in the diet 'books'.

I comepletely agree with Naja's comments above.Folks you have learn think for yourself sometimes. If its Low Glycemic, High Antioxidant, High Fibre & Green Veggie then its probably low carb & absolutely induction friendly & not only allowed but prefered.

[pammie]

I still say stick to the list for induction...

we are only talking 2 weeks!! 2 short weeks....seriously, if you cannot stick to the list for 2 short weeks. Than I think you have some other food problems you need to deal with.

Sorry, but even though I live in Asian and I take full advantage of all the yummy veggies available to me, the first 2 weeks, induction I did by the book...I don't want to take any chances eating something that Dr. Atkins did not approve, no mater how low in carb, high in fiber, high in nutrients. And I agree Bitter Melon is all of those, and frankly I eat it about 3 times a week....but I was able to restrain myself for 2 short weeks!

[Naja]

I think he did approve it. I think it is a cucumber.

[SummerLove]

I'm still on Induction, but I've done the whole 2 clean weeks already.

[Wyatt]

Pammie is right - If you can't give something up for 2 whole weeks of induction, your problem is far deeper than whether that is an acceptable food or not.

The author living in Florida certainly could follow the acceptable foods list if she chose. I have read from dozens of moderators in hundreds of topics "It's very simple. It is 2 weeks. If it's on the list, eat away. If it isn't on the list, stay away."

Since this is the Atkins diet bulletin board, you will have to forgive the people that want to follow the woe as described in the book. In the end, what you eat and your success therein lies entirely in your own hands.

[Naja]

Pammie is right - If you can't give something up for 2 whole weeks of induction, your problem is far deeper than whether that is an acceptable food or not.

Sticking to the diet and doing it clean is hard enough without forcing someone to switch to a foreign ethnic cuisine for absolutely no good reason. I don't think that would contribute to anyone's real success on the diet. There's doing it by the book, and there's interpreting the book using incorrect assumptions that are likely to damage people's ability to use the diet effectively.

A Chinese cucumber is still a cucumber. A European cabbage is still a cabbage. There are no significant differences between them nutritionally or taxonomically. It's foolish and ethnocentric to make everybody on Atkins eat strictly the American subspecies of approved vegetables. The American subspecies do not have any more special Induction mojo than the taxonomic and nutritional equivalents in the same family of vegetables on other continents.

Now if the genus and family of some ethnic vegetable was not at all on the approved list, that would be a different story. But closely related variants of the same vegetables that are on the approved list should be counted as approved vegetables. I think it would be a good idea to check and make sure that the subspecies of cabbage or cucumber you are eating is in fact the same vegetable that is on the approved list, and that the nutritional values are the same.

It's just not that complicated. There are no low carb high fiber low GI green vegetables that will magically mess up your Induction if you eat them, no matter what country they come from. If you eat leaves off of a mongongo tree in Africa or a kaffir tree in Thailand, they are a) not realistically going to be listed on the American foods Induction list and b) not going to mess up your induction either. You should avoid the fruits and nuts off of the same tree however.

There are some vegetables that have higher carbs and/or a higher glycemic index, and they should be avoided. There are some vegetables that don't have an equivalent or a relative on the approved Induction list, and those should be avoided or researched very carefully. Commonly available North American vegetables that are not on the approved foods list are off of it for a good reason, so if your ethnic food is related to one of the NON-approved North American vegetable families, leave it alone.

I prefer science to superstition. I think it is extremely silly to say that you can eat "cabbage" but not pei tsai, when both are Brassicaceae species and are more closely related that the cabbages (red, green, Savoy, Napa) that are purchasable under the name "cabbage" in an American supermarket. I think that "cabbage" reasonably refers to all Brassicaceae including Asian variants within the same range of Induction acceptable nutritional values. You may have been conditioned to think of the word "cabbage" as a referent to the green globes in your North American supermarket, but the scientific and taxonomic definition of a cabbage is not limited to this continent.

There is no particular magic mojo to the foods on the Induction list. They do not contain special magic chemicals that only exist in North American vegetables. It's all about the macronutrient profile and the GI index. There are some vegetables that can surprise you because they have a different macronutrient profile or GI index (higher carbs) than others in the same family, which is why research is very important. It is not a good idea to casually eat vegetables not specifically named on the approved list unless you are absolutely certain that they are in the family of approved vegetables AND they are within the normal range of nutritional values for that vegetable family (eg, close to the values of the approved American species).

If you are in fact shopping in an American supermarket eating only American variants of the vegetables listed, you'd better stick strictly to the list. If you are living internationally or accustomed to eating a specific ethnic cuisine, a little research on the "cabbage" or "cucumber" nutritional and taxonomic equivalent in your country will serve you well.

If Dr. A was alive he'd say the same thing. If you don't believe me, ask any doctor who is trained in the Atkins nutritional approach and see what they have to say about eating a healthy, low carb, low GI Asian subspecies of cucumber or cabbage on Induction. I think they'll cheer.

[Wyatt]

Summerlove wrote

'm still on Induction, but I've done the whole 2 clean weeks already.

Way to go! If you have already completed the 2 week clean induction and want to incorporate foods equivelant to those on the induction list I would say you are doing just great. Those first 2 weeks I followed strictly to the book, as is recommended by 99% of the successful atkineers..lol.

Naja,
With all due respect, please forgive me for putting more faith in what Dr.A wrote than in your interpretation therein. I am well aware of international equivalents, as was the well travelled Dr. I agree with you that everyone should check and make sure that the subspecies of cabbage or cucumber you are eating is in fact the same vegetable that is on the approved list, and that the nutritional values are the same. That being said, the Dr wrote the book, and I am following Dr. Atkins plan rather than Naja's interpretation.


Summerlove, again Congrats! You are well on your way, and I wish you the best.

ha