I'm Starting Over!

[cleochatra]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

The jicama example is completely induction legal and acceptable, as well as on the appropriate side of the veggie lists. Being as high fiber as it is, it's not a giant glycemic load, particularly if distributed over the course of the day as Dr. Atkins (and all of us) recommend. It would be a 7 carb shot if eaten over 2 meals..less if snacked on over the course of the day, so the blood sugar spike isn't really an arguement for this case either.

True, but if that were truly the case, berries would also be acceptable on induction according to Atkins. Afterall, they tend to be higher in fiber and eaten in small quantities and with fats would be negligible, at only 5 carbs per serving. Atkins knew that people have difficulties in the begiining listening to their bodies because hunger has always been an issue, so he tells us what tyo have in strict quantities until we begin climbing the rungs of the ladder when our blood sugar is finally under control.

With regards to the Atkins website, in all honesty, I don't trust the Atkins center and haven't for years, so cannot vouch for what they put on their website. My only source I trust is the 2002 version of DANDR.

Again - I'm not saying one way is right and one way is wrong. They were both endorsed - to me, personally - and several other old-time Atkins followers I know- as both being correct. Just different measuring methods - one being far more accurate for carb count than the other. Weight vs volume is far more accurate for counting carbs (I can pack a TON of something in a cup if I try hard enough).

I believe that while weight is far more pragmatic when dealing with food portions and that everyone should use a scale as a guideline, most people know that a cup of lettuce (as an example) is loosely packed. Common sense is the key, as it is with everything.

Thank you for the discussion, Brook. I respect your thoughts and opinions, even when they differ from what I believe to be fact based on DANDR.

[Brook]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

True, but if that were truly the case, berries would also be acceptable on induction according to Atkins. Afterall, they tend to be higher in fiber and eaten in small quantities and with fats would be negligible, at only 5 carbs per serving. Atkins knew that people have difficulties in the begiining listening to their bodies because hunger has always been an issue, so he tells us what tyo have in strict quantities until we begin climbing the rungs of the ladder when our blood sugar is finally under control.

I disagree whole heartedly. Berries aren't on the Induction Acceptable list at all - so the point, IMHO is mute. Jicama is.

As for hunger, if that were true, then there would be limitations on the amount of meat and fat that we eat as well - but there's not, so the limiting of quantities isn't the issue either. For the veggies, we're not talking about more calories or more carbs - just more volume.

In my reference of talking to the Atkins Center I wasn't talking about the Atkins website or the Atkins Center in the last two years. I don't trust them either. The website has mystified me for a long, long time - way too commercial and doesn't listen to the tennants of the plan to begin with - so once again, we're in agreement there. I talked to the Atkins Center over 3 years ago and paid a counselor to discuss issues by phone. Horses of two entirely different colors, and the clarification for this particular discussion is important.

most people know that a cup of lettuce (as an example) is loosely packed. Common sense is the key, as it is with everything.

Most people do know that, but that doesn't negate the fact that people will cram as much as they can in. LOL Common sense is key - and going by weight instead of volume doesn't go against common sense or the basics of the program.

Fact, as laid out by DANDR also includes several low-carb products in the menus - so where does one draw the line so far as following the letter of the book? It's not okay to eat more induction appropriate veggies based on weight vs volume, but it's okay to go against the book and say that the low-carb products are bad?

Interesting stuff!

I respect your thoughts and opinions

Backatcha, babe!

<hip bump>

~Brook

[Splandrea]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Considering the fact that Cleo and Brook both look AMAZING and have obviously got this Atkins thing down, I say WHO cares? I would follow in either one of your footsteps after the beautiful transformations you have been through!!

[Bren]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

For all beginners of the Atkins Diet. This forum will help you along your first 14 days of the Induction Phase. Note: We are strictly by the book in this forum (DANDR - 2002).

I love this thread as it is so informative! But, maybe we should take the "vegie" part of it into the General Atkins forum or Extended Induction forum as per the description of this forum itself. Know what I mean?
(insert hugs and kisses here!!!!!!!!!)

[cleochatra]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Brook! you make some excellent points. I doubt I did a very good job at being in-depth in my post because I sometimes have ADHD--look something shiny!

The point I want to make most is what bren said. Since this is a forum which follows the 2002 version of DANDR painfully by the book, I, too, enforce the book's tenets, regardless what the Atkins company might then say later on.

That said, your point about jicama is a good one, versus, say, berries. Still, any vegetable eaten to excess is going to drive up one's glycemic index. It still breaks down into sugar in the bloodstream.

As for hunger, if that were true, then there would be limitations on the amount of meat and fat that we eat as well - but there's not, so the limiting of quantities isn't the issue either. For the veggies, we're not talking about more calories or more carbs - just more volume.

There are limitations on the amount of meats and fats we eat on Atkins, too. The law of caloric intake never disappears even when we're following Atkins. As such, he still maintains one eats only until full, and never past being full.

3500 calories in excess of what our bodies need to survive = 1 pound, regardless whether we're following Atkins or not.

The reason people lose weight on Atkins (which I know you know but am putting this out for others who might not out there in the world, I know I didn't when I began) is because of the full feeling which contributes to taking in less calories, which amounts to weight loss. When I followed this way of eating last year and ate in excess of 1,000 calories of mayonnaise per day, I lost a lot less than when I was eating sensibly and counting calories as well as carbohydrates.

Calories still matter (which I found out the really really tough way-- *lol*)

Common sense is key - and going by weight instead of volume doesn't go against common sense or the basics of the program

I agree, and is why you and I are very similar in that we recommend people do use things like scales when feasible or common sense with cup measurements. And it brings me to one of the things that makes me distrust the advice the Atkins company hands out.

I have a copy of their 2005 Atkins journal, which I did buy because it keeps me on track as a daily place to log my intake. On the page opposite April 18 it gives a portion sizing guide. One of the measurements? 1 cup = a fist. The question is WHO's fist? are we talking Andre the Giant's fist, or Tiny Tim's fist? That is so ludicrous of the Atkins corp. to say that a cup is the size of a fist.

Fact, as laid out by DANDR also includes several low-carb products in the menus - so where does one draw the line so far as following the letter of the book? It's not okay to eat more induction appropriate veggies based on weight vs volume, but it's okay to go against the book and say that the low-carb products are bad?

The letter of the book remains the constant here at ADBB, as it necessarily must in the 14-day induction period. If everyone follows their own vibe then there's no scientific way to know who's following what plan and how, over a control group, it will work for others.

Based on weight versus volume, society tends to measure rather than weigh vegetables foir assembling salads. Now, if one eats 10 carbs of salad veg in 5 cups because weighing the food gives far more food than loosely packing in a cup, when the standard is 3 cups, then I think there's a problem, because the book does state to stay within a certain guideline for reasons stated earlier in the thread. Again, glycemic indexes being what they are, Atkins was extremely careful to state to measure by cup and not by ounce.

Granted, past the 14-day induction period, following an extended and modified OWL (which is modified induction, but not by the book, according to ADBB), one eats more than the allotted of any given vegetable which is acceptable because ythey know how their body reacts to it, then that is a decision a person makes on their own.

Really, though, people tend to, as a rule, measure their veg in either the size of the vegetable (1 stalk celery), or by measurement (1 Tbsp onion). Very little do we as a society tend to see vegetables described by weight measurement during discussions of diet. And using weight instead of volume can be very misleading and create glycemic issues for the new Atkins eater. The idea should be to stick to what the book says because it works for the most people.

Again, while there are exceptions to the rule, Atkins was an objectivist, not a relativist. This is why I believe we are so stringent here at ADBB.

So, while I measure some things, like cheese, to ensure I don't overeat it, I still follow very strictly the cup guidelines set forth by Dr A as regards things like vegetables.

{{{Splandrea}}} You are so sweet! Thank you for the compliment. Unfortunately it does matter though, regarding the amount of vegetables a person eats in induction because it is so strict by its very nature. If a person ends up eating 10 cups of lettuce a day and feels hungry all the time because they weighed their food rather than measuring 3 loosely-packed cups of it (as 2002 DANDR states), he blood sugar will get a kick to the hootchies and a person will end up feeling like they've had a mild sugar rush. Part of of induction is to rid the body of sugar cravings. Trying to get more bang for the buck by weighing food like lettuce (as an example) is not going to help in the end if a person ends up eating more than they should at any given time.

Even protein can break down in the system as sugar if not eaten with fats.

These seem like trifling points Brook and I are discussing, but they can make all the difference in feeling good versus feeling hungry, tired, run down or craving other foods.

I know that I've learned a lot about my body being on Atkins and what kills my blood sugar and what doesn't (that's one thing you'll love about this WOE!). As an example, while induction-friendly, broccoli KILLS me! Now, were I to weigh the food rather than measure it and eat three times the amount I should, I'd end up chasing a Krispy Kreme donut truck down the street and licking its tires by the time I finished my well-appointed bowl o' broccoli.

What Brook suggests won't work for the newbie because the newbie hasn't had the chance to get rid of the cravings and unstable blood sugars, let alone give it a rush of veggies which could do what broccoli does with me.

It's all about trial and error, which isn't a luxury those in strict induction cannot risk and is best saved for extended induction, OWL and modified OWL.

So, while we can argue semantics or methodology, when it comes to strict induction, it's by the book!

I forgot to say to pack a lunch before typing this I think!

{{{Brook}}}{{{Andrea}}}{{{Bren}}}

[Brook]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Cleo- that's just it, as I pointed out to Isabeau in the other thread...this forum *DOES NOT* follow the DANDR "to the letter" and I can verify and prove that point by simply doing a search on low-carb products in this very forum. It seems that there are pieces and parts everyone wants to stand by, but not ALL of them, and I find it a very unfair statement to say otherwise, because it's simply not true.

People will tout the 3 cups like it's law, but then say the products the very same book endorses FOR INDUCTION (via the sample INDUCTION menus) aren't okay. I find it..... ironic. LOL

What Brook suggests won't work for the newbie because the newbie hasn't had the chance to get rid of the cravings and unstable blood sugars, let alone give it a rush of veggies which could do what broccoli does with me.

Again an unfair and inaccurate statement. It does work - because again, it's not a difference in calories OR carb count, and to say that eating more volume of vegetables does is inaccurate. It doesn't based on glycemic index or impact, calories, or carb count. It's *not* a rush in veggies. It still comes out to be the same amount in glycemic load, carbs, and calories.

A pound of feathers vs a pound of bricks, essentially.

5 grams of carb from the same veggies will have the same impact as 5 grams of the same veggies - period. Whether you get your 5 grams from 1/2 a cup of veggies and I get mine from 4 oz of veggies is again, a pound of feathers vs a pound of bricks arguement, really.

It's not an overload in any way , shape or form- and it can't be proven with numbers at all, Cleo. It can't be -which is exactly what the original arguement was to begin with.

I've been mentoring newbies for 3 1/2 years - right along with 2big - and it does work. To say it doesn't is wrong. The numbers don't support it, the Atkins Nutritionists don't support it, and the results don't support it. I have not ever, and will never, tell anyone that they can't eat <20 grams worth of induction acceptable veggies because they couldn't fit them into a cup that's subjective at best, and I won't stand by and say nothing when I hear everyone saying they're following the letter of the book - not when they're not endorsing ALL of the letters.

But again, I digress. Thank you again for a wonderful debate!

~Brook

[cleochatra]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Cleo- that's just it, as I pointed out to Isabeau in the other thread...this forum *DOES NOT* follow the DANDR "to the letter" and I can verify and prove that point by simply doing a search on low-carb products in this very forum. It seems that there are pieces and parts everyone wants to stand by, but not ALL of them, and I find it a very unfair statement to say otherwise, because it's simply not true.

As bren stated, the forum is by the book, so the moderators here are, by this same token, by the book. Using low-carb Atkins products I cannot answer to, because I follow this way of eating as organically as is possible. I have not used Atkins products or other low-carb products because the point is to get away from processing and sugar substitutes as much as is possible for a more whole-foods approach. Atkins' discussion of low-carb products was, I believe, meant to be in case of emergency only.

After all, Atkins wrote this diet before any low-carb products existed!

So, really, I can't agree with you on that point. We'll agree to disagree. Induction is not a low-carb, processed food fest. It is about cleansing the body from all the processed foods that made us fat in the first place.

Again an unfair and inaccurate statement. It does work - because again, it's not a difference in calories OR carb count, and to say that eating more volume of vegetables does is inaccurate. It doesn't based on glycemic index or impact, calories, or carb count. It's *not* a rush in veggies. It still comes out to be the same amount in glycemic load, carbs, and calories.

I wholly disagree with this statement. Volume does matter. Too much of anything that causes a little blood sugar rush causes a load of blood sugar rush, especially to the new Atkins eater, especially if not eaten in small doses with amounts of fat. Atkins knew this, and, as such, limited veggies to three cups a day, and particularly to the lower-glycemic (but not no-glycemic) scale.

I've been mentoring newbies for 3 1/2 years - right along with 2big - and it does work. To say it doesn't is wrong.

This is a fallacy known as 'appeal to authority'. While I respect you and admire you, I disagree with you and don't accept the theory that your mentoring for 3.5 years is any more important than empirical fact.

Glycemic index matters. Amount eaten matters. Atkins knew this and wrote induction as he did for that reason.

Finally, you're trying to throw the baby out with the proverbial bathwater when you keep maintaining that because some don't follow every letter of the law they follow no letter of the law. That's another non-argument.

At this forum it's all about following the book. If someone gives wrong or false information, the book is there to consult, and it is why we request people read the book. Dr Stkins is the final authority on the matter, and is why I follow Dr Atkins' advice.

Following the DANDR 2000 version is the final say on the matter on this forum, as it must be, with other hypothetical discussion of what might or might not work really being more of a general topic discussion and not one of scientific fact.

Measurement by loosely-packed cup is what Dr Atkins advocates on induction. I stand by that while I respect you very much and understand what you are saying.

[Brook]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

You can't have it both ways. You're either "by the book" or you're not. If you denounce the use of the products suggested by the book you follow, then you're not following the book. It's semantics. - And it's not the point of the discussion. You said that you all follow the book to the letter- I simply pointed out that you don't and can't say you do if you tell a newbie that the products aren't allowed. I don't eat low-carb products either. I also keep it as natural as possible and always have - but again, that wasn't the point. The point for that was that the forum doesn't follow the book to the letter. <shrug>

Volume doesn't cause glycemic load, Cleo. Carbs do. If the carbs are the same, the glycemic load is the same. <shrug> It is what it is. The volume of what you eat affects how full you are - yes - but that does NOT translate into glycemic load OR cravings. No one ever said anything about not eating them with fat - so not sure where you're getting that from at all. <shrug> That has nothing to do with the weight vs volume of induction appropriate veggies. Show me numbers and I'll be the first to back up and admit defeat.

ALL the veggies on the Induction list (salad side) are low-glycemic, so that is a non-arguement.

The point was never about eating more than you should to feel satisfied - you're trying to diversify a point that's very specific. The point was that you CAN eat more veggies and still keep within the very limits that the book lays out.

Again, you may view my saying that it DOES work & a 3 1/2 year long track record of doing exactly what you do here as a mod (even did it here ) as an empirical fact, but that doesn't negate the fact that it *is* fact. <shrug>

Finally, you're trying to throw the baby out with the proverbial bathwater when you keep maintaining that because some don't follow every letter of the law they follow no letter of the law. That's another non-argument.

Not sure what planet this one is coming from....but okay. LOL Never said anything of the sort.

Fair enough - The mods here need to win the arguement, even if it can't be done with numbers or logic, and I'm okay with that

I absolutely *love* a good debate

Have a great day
~Brook

[cleochatra]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Brook. I apologize for not giving you the debate you had hoped for apparently (as mentioned in your journal), and while you think my need is to win a debate, it is only for people to understand that the 2002 version of DANDR is what is followed here at ADBB induction and is what advice is based on when given by moderators.

I'm not here to 'win'. I'm just reiterating policy behind ADBB and its adherence to strict 2002 version following, especially in the induction forums.

Again, my apologies for not being up to your snuff as regards the discussion.

[Brook]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

ADBB and its adherence to strict 2002 version

Again, another subject up for debate.

The facts are still the facts and I won't apologize for standing up for them. Volume does not glycemic load make.

While driving today, it occurred to me that there would have been a very easy way to say all that without all the blow-hard stuff.

The bottom line is that volume measurements are inaccurate. The 1/2 cup of tomato you would measure out is likely to be different than the 1/2 cup I, or anyone else for that matter, would measure out - and it would be dependant on several things from the water content of the tomato to how small or large you diced it up. I could fit 2 slices of tomato in that 1/2 cup, but if I diced 3 or 4 slices, it would still fit in the same 1/2 cup - and the carb counts - based on volume alone - would be WAY off. The way you'd enter it into fitday, however, would be the same - and it would be wrong.

Weight is more accurate and reliable all the way around.

Cleo - actually ...I owe you an apology. I snipped at the subject & you, albeit indirectly, in there (and was actually just headed over there to edit my snarky stuff out) when you weren't my issue or target at all. For the record, I'm not generally so creepy - believe it or not!


I'm sorry.

~Brook

[cleochatra]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

I forgive you, Brook! No worries. I really appreciate you saying you're sorry, even if I know you still don't think me terribly rational or logical and somewhat disappointing. I'll say no more about that.

My job isn't to please everyone. It's to help people and support people and to give back to ADBB in return for all I've been given.

I don't want to exert myself as superior.

Because I'm absolutely not that.

The bottom line is that volume measurements are inaccurate. The 1/2 cup of tomato you would measure out is likely to be different than the 1/2 cup I, or anyone else for that matter, would measure out - and it would be dependant on several things from the water content of the tomato to how small or large you diced it up. I could fit 2 slices of tomato in that 1/2 cup, but if I diced 3 or 4 slices, it would still fit in the same 1/2 cup - and the carb counts - based on volume alone - would be WAY off. The way you'd enter it into fitday, however, would be the same - and it would be wrong.

I understood what you said perfectly the first time. Really! I still say that, barring human tendency towards some deviation from the norm, Dr. Atkins, knowing how society operates, still is following what everyone generally follows with regards to portion sizes... cup measurements. Now, you might not like it, and that's cool! That's your right.

Thank you for being sweet and best of luck to you! I know we'll still meet at the board and will be cordial as always! In the future, please come to me with my inferiorities rather than broadcast them to the board. I might have missed some of the entertainment.

*lol*

{{{Brook}}}

[2big4mysize]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Gosh how the heck did i miss all this good debating.

let us not forget DANDR was written as an end all one size fits all plan. Dr Atkins says in several places in DANDR many of you will find you can eat 3 cups, but there are those folk in the world who can't lose weight eating any carb veggies when they start doing Atkins ketogenic because of insulin resistance or sever metabolic resistance. In the pre 2002 book Dr Atkins said we could use a carb counter and use any foods to pick in amounts we wanted to get our 20 grams in rule 5 but based on the results he saw and heard anout in the feed back from patients and readers during the 10 yrs between the 1992 and 2002 books in 2002 he changed the plan to give the most folk the best chance at success and based on what he was hearing the best chance was to have them eat either the 3 cups of the salad veggies or eat the 2 cups with the 1 cup of the other veggies. Dr Atkins discussed it an article about the induction and I wish i could find it again cause my link to it goes nowhere now that most of us, about 95% of us, were in 14 days on that plan going to see significant weight loss and acheive appetite and craving controls because he picked between 15-20 carbs as our target number for those 14 days.

And again in his Larry King interview he discussed how strick his plan was for 14 days and said we should follow it and not complain about 14 days cause we have the rest of our lives ( he said 70 yrs) to eat the less strick parts.
He was very much aware it was very regimented in induction 14 days.

Speaking of volume who could forget the poor UK folk who were given the erroneous conversion of 8 ounce cups to weight ounces and were litterally eating 1.5 pounds in grams of lettuce as their induction veggies back in 2003 when the first UK editions of the new DANDR can out.

[Finelly]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

<head spinning after going back and forth following the argument here.....>

I don't know that I have a position on the veggie issue. I've occasionally eaten more veggies than 3 cups. I call it "hovering over OWL".

I DO know that we don't all go by the book on this forum. Just an example: there are several of us at any given moment who are either doing Atkins vegetarian, or are limiting their meat. This means we eat more cheese (not a lot more, though), more sour cream, more dairy in general (the legal kind, not cottage cheese) than the average Atkins bear. Not to mention eggs (I go through about 4 dozen a week and I know, there aren't limits on eggs). Until allowed soy protein powder, that's what we have to do. I did this as a moderator, and I do it now as a Second-timer. Because while it is difficult to do Atkins as a vegetarian, Dr. Atkins said it can be done, albeit carefully. I myself eat meat maybe 2 times a week. And it causes me to "pause" - or rather, the scale "pauses".

And let's get to the flax issue. When I first started on this board, everyone was recommending 3 tablespoons per day in cereal or cracker form during induction for constipation. Now some of the mods are saying no, that was a mistake. Those of us who started with 3 tablespoons have continued it through induction, with no ill-effects.

Then there are people who start eating nuts after 2 weeks. Atkins himself vaccilated on the nuts issue. There's a whole rung for nuts in OWL. But he also said you can have small amounts of nuts on extended induction or even on the first rungs of OWL before the nuts and seeds rung. Go figure!

[Splandrea]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Another question/item for debate?

Just to note, I have been eating the ocassional Atkins bar, actually, I have had two of them during this induction, and if you count from me not starting over, I am on day 12 now. I was reading the chapter for induction and it says you can have atkins bars and shakes as long as they fit into the rules of induction, whcih I am assuming means no nuts or whatever else is not on the list, right. So even though there is a detalied list, then he says we can eat the bars and shakes - so they must have much more in them than what is listed on the list. I don't actually see Chocolate on the induction foods list???

anyway, it has not kicked me out of ketosis at all and they are tasty and actually almost too sweet (I can only eat a half of one at a time) and big and filling. I did have one today and noticed a craving or two for the first time about 1-1/2 hours later. I just drank water and it went away.

Anyway, for those of you who know the DANDR as their "bible", can you tell me how you intepret that last paragraph where he states the bars and shakes to be legal in induction (as long as they follow the rules of induction)?

[Elizellen]

Re: I'm Starting Over!

Splandrea asked

Anyway, for those of you who know the DANDR as their "bible", can you tell me how you intepret that last paragraph where he states the bars and shakes to be legal in induction (as long as they follow the rules of induction)?

Not too sure about the 'bible' bit but I interpret it as meaning exactly what it says!!
That is: As long as everything listed in the ingredients list appears on the allowed foods list then it is fine to use these as part of an induction menu.
So any with nuts/soy product/wheat product/fruit listed in the ingredients would NOT be induction-legal, but would be fine on the appropriate rungs of OWL.

I dont have my DANDR at work with me but doesn't it also say that the bars are fine to use 'in an emergency'?

If I remember correctly and he did say that or something along those lines, then I would interpret that to mean that if I found myself somewhere where I really could not pop into a supermarket or other shop and buy some slices of meat, piece of chicken, real cheese, some vegetables or salad from the list then and only then would it be OK to buy and eat an Atkins meal replacement bar.

Luckily so far I have not found myself in that position as I live and work in a town area surrounded by an assortment of retail shops and so there are supermarkets and grocery-type shops around, and if I know I am going to be in the middle of nowhere around eating time I have been able to plan and take snacks with me.