Maintenance For Real People

[sugarkang]

I started thinking about what makes maintenance such a hard thing to do. I don't accept the notion that "our bodies are all different." 95% of Americans before 1970 were not overweight. So 95% of us are the same. 95% of us can eat 70-100grams of carbs while maintaining a decent body fat. (If you insist you are in the special 5%, stop reading).

I think the social aspects of low carbing is what's difficult. Real people work. We go OUT TO LUNCH and we eat with friends/co-workers. And lunch in the modern world = sandwich or fast food. You don't want to be the only idiot with a lettuce bun burger.

So let's get real. We can make our own low carb breakfast and dinner, but we're at the mercy of the world when it's lunch. But two slices of bread are only 30-40g carbs. Even a burger at McDonald's only yields 40-50g carbs max.

I've started eating fried chicken and nuggets and other things and I'm still losing weight. Eliminating these foods seems so over the top and unnecessary. Depriving yourself makes you lose weight fast NOW, but makes you fail down the road and binge on cakes. So eat a normal carby "main food" but take out the super carby sides like french fries, baked potatoes and chips. Sodas are obviously on the "no" list.

So what I'm saying is we can still participate in the great American lunch without needlessly drawing attention to ourselves. Once you cut out the potato chips or fries, then the carbs are pretty much from the bun or the sandwich bread.

We don't need to feel like victims. We can still eat with everyone else. And that makes it much more likely that we can do this forever. What do you think?

[EverLosing]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

I started thinking about what makes maintenance such a hard thing to do. I don't accept the notion that "our bodies are all different." 95% of Americans before 1970 were not overweight. So 95% of us are the same. 95% of us can eat 70-100grams of carbs while maintaining a decent body fat. (If you insist you are in the special 5%, stop reading).

I think the social aspects of low carbing is what's difficult. Real people work. We go OUT TO LUNCH and we eat with friends/co-workers. And lunch in the modern world = sandwich or fast food. You don't want to be the only idiot with a lettuce bun burger.

So let's get real. We can make our own low carb breakfast and dinner, but we're at the mercy of the world when it's lunch. But two slices of bread are only 30-40g carbs. Even a burger at McDonald's only yields 40-50g carbs max.

I've started eating fried chicken and nuggets and other things and I'm still losing weight. Eliminating these foods seems so over the top and unnecessary. Depriving yourself makes you lose weight fast NOW, but makes you fail down the road and binge on cakes. So eat a normal carby "main food" but take out the super carby sides like french fries, baked potatoes and chips. Sodas are obviously on the "no" list.

So what I'm saying is we can still participate in the great American lunch without needlessly drawing attention to ourselves. Once you cut out the potato chips or fries, then the carbs are pretty much from the bun or the sandwich bread.

We don't need to feel like victims. We can still eat with everyone else. And that makes it much more likely that we can do this forever. What do you think?

Wow. I've found lately with the downturn of the economy, most people I know no longer go out to lunch. They're brown baggin it. I do. Before I started this, I didn't even eat lunch. Now, I do and it's healthy. There are probably a few people who would take offense to your notion of them being perceived as the only idiot with a lettuce bun burger because in fact, they're probably the only one there who has taken the time to educate themselves beyond the idiot level in nutrition comprehension. Certainly feel free to speak for yourself, but I am not now and never will be at the mercy of the world "when it's lunch." What? I'll be d*mned if I'm ever at the mercy of McDonald's. I laugh at the people blocking traffic on the road waiting to get into that devil's den. Effort is all it takes to be prepared with healthy food choices no matter what time of day it is. Eliminating illegal foods that you're eating now is reasonable and completely necessary. What you're saying is following the Atkins plan (that's why we're here) and succeeding (losing weight) is great for now, but we're destined to fail because somehow we're disciplined enough to follow the rules now but won't be later??? Binge on cakes...hmmm. I'm just guessing following the plan and rules and having discipline actually PREPARES you for maintainence.

Honestly, I hope a newbie doesn't read your post and think there's anything sensical about your thoughts. You're clearly not on the Atkins plan and your perceived success using your rules and not what's spelled out in the plan makes this a dangerous post for a newbie to read and believe.

You seem unhealthily concerned about what other think of you. You mention being the only idiot with the lettuce wrapped burger, "we" don't need to feel like victims and needlessly drawing attention to ourselves. Something is up with the way you feel people are perceiving you. I have never felt that way on this WOE. You shouldn't either. You could make the choice though to get on Atkins and stay on it forever. It's even more rewarding and effective when done correctly.

[sugarkang]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

Apparently, I've touched a nerve. If you've educated yourself on nutrition, then maybe you could go a little further and educate yourself on failure rates. Recidivism for all diet plans is pretty equal, with Atkins being only slightly better. And sadly, recidivism is HIGH.

I posted my message because I want people to succeed. And I'll just speak for myself here, but part of LONG TERM success is having a sense of normalcy and balance. We are social beings. Maybe you can just go it alone the whole way, but I can't.

This is the "Maintenance" section of the board. Those of us who are at or near goal weight. I wasn't trying to offend people who are still struggling with their low carb WOE. How many times have YOU started/stopped/started this diet? Is it possible that you shouldn't be on this section of the board yet?

I'm sorry you think I posted just to make everyone feel like crap. Thank you for your observation that since I'm a "newbie," I have no insight to offer. I joined weeks ago and read hundreds of posts, but that's neither here nor there.

[EverLosing]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

Succeeding on Atkins is being on it and living it. My point in my post was people in all phases of Atkins read all parts of this board. There's a little link at the top of the page that says new posts. When you click on it, it lists all new posts. I don't think you posted to make anyone feel like crap BUT posts like your original one can be detrimental to those out there who are tempted to believe they can deviate from the Atkins Nutritional Approach and still reap success and the health benefits this WOL provides. I think you could offer insight. I just wish you were on Atkins and not sugarkangkins on an Atkins message board. You absolutely have a right to post here as do I. With posting, however, comes some responsibility not to just toss anything out there....like, I'm there, I did it, I'm off plan and I can eat like this forever...on an Atkins board. I actually wasn't referring to you as a newbie. I referred to newbies reading your post and believing they can attain success and maintainence eating foods that are not part of the program. Mixing foods that are off plan with foods that are can in fact be more unhealthy than our old way of eating. There's a delicate balance when consuming the amounts of fats we do. You seem really unhappy based on both of your posts and I'm sorry for that. I'm not going to continue to spar with you as there are many people here who do need help and encouragement. The point of this post was to help you understand I in no way agree with your last paragraph in your post. It's not about you have no insight, you're a newbie or that you wanted to make others feel like crap. It's about you're not following Atkins and this is an Atkins message board. Good night and good luck.

[sugarkang]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

This is my first post in a nutshell:
Eating two slices of bread a day will allow us to have lunch like everyone else in America. One burger bun will not kill you.

Again, this was posted in the Atkins for Life section, not for OWL. I don't know what rung you're on, but my post assumes that you are at GOAL or close, and can eat 70-100g of carbs per day. Given that assumption, you can spend half of those carbs at lunch, a quarter in the morning and a quarter at night and STILL maintain.

There are social aspects to the way we do things and it's not all about the math. I smoked cigarettes for 18 years and quit cold turkey 2.5 months ago. All addicts have the same rationalizing going on in their heads. "I get to be bad because I've been so good." Eating a lettuce bun burger just ends up creating "I've been good" credits that eventually gets spent with a fury later. IMO, too many of us "diet" and say "ooh I'm being so good." Instead, we should eat healthy because we WANT to and eliminate carbs because we just DON'T WANT TO. Breaking addictions is about breaking this victim/deprived mentality.

IMO, long term success (once you are at GOAL weight) is about NOT feeling deprived. I'm sorry you think that two pieces of bread a day will lead you to morbid obesity, but that's just hysteria on your part. If anything, I think I've been more sensible about long term success. Good luck with your diet.

[sadie147]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

Not all carbs are created equal IMO. I can eat up to 100g's of healthy carbs a day in maintain, but it depends what those carbs are made up of.

If i choose to make those carbs 2 slices of white bread, a chocolate bar and a cupcake, and make the rest of my day 0 carb proteins...the chances I would continue to maintain? very slim. Even if i did this once a week i highly doubt i would maintain.

A carb is not a carb...though almost the same amount of carbs there is a big difference between a Kit Kat and a large apple: fibre, nutrients,calories, the way your body reacts when it digests these two foods. The same can be said for that fast food burger bun or bread you mention and whole grain multigrain bread and buns. Not only is it devoid of nutrients and fibre, but will most likely wreak havok with your blood sugar among other things.

I have been in maintenance for 3 years now. I'm a perfect example of someone that can eat a higher level of carbs and maintain, but that can completely turn around depending on WHAT it is I eat. And WHAT I eat, when it's a bad food choice, can also lead me off track, gaining, then having to struggle to get back on track.

Going through atkins properly, through induction and OWL stages and learning exactly what foods i could tolerate I have learned a new way of eating, and a new apprecition for vegetables and whole grains. Had i just lowered the carbs i was eating to 100, I would not be nearly as successful (if at all) as I have been.

Atkins is in stages for a reason, There's alot more to it than just the amount of carbs you eat a day.

From reading this post, and your other posts, I'm thinking perhaps you might be more suited on our sister board which is a 'general' low carb board, and not strict Atkins Low Carb Forums

[sallyseachange]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

I've been away for a few days and have just read this thread. It's really quite interesting and seems to me, at a first read, that EverLosing and Sugarkang are coming at the "being helpful to other Atkineers" from two different perspectives, while both wanting to do just that. Kudos to you both.

Like Sadie, I endorse the fact that for many, regularly eating two carby buns made with super refined white flour, is a recipe for disaster when it comes to weight maintenance. Cravings would hit many of us and old habits would slowly gain a foothold. For real.

However, two slices of high fibre wholegrain bread are an entirely different matter, don't you think?
Not only are they legal at maintenance (as long as you stay within your CCLM), but if they made you feel more comfortable and less obvious in the big bad world of high carb eaters, then fine... it could be what holds you to the plan and keeps you maintaining rather than struggling. It's a question of knowing oneself and of personal choice.

Well, that's my take, at least.

Thanks everyone for an interesting read.

[kibskix]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

this thread reminds me of my senior english professor. he lost his job teaching advanced english because the students whined that it was 'too hard'. i passed with an A, and so did the rest of my class. but all the kids below me were whiny, spoiled brats who didn't know the meaning of hard work. he moved to another district that knew what he was worth, and now those students do better on standardized testing of that subject than the ones at my old school.

if you think once you get to maintenance you can start eating mcdonalds every day, you're a fool. it isn't so much about it 'only' having 40-50 carbs, its about what you're putting into your body. that stuff is crap, pure and simple, and it goes against every good habit OWL teaches you. and btw if no one noticed, fast food restaurants serve salad. imagine that. there are actually a few fast food places that offer whole grain buns, i think sonic and chik fil a do, but since theres no nutrient label on them, you really don't know, so i'd personally avoid it alltogether.

it sounds to me that you're more afraid of what people might think of what you're eating than all this 'having' to eat out stuff.

'We don't need to feel like victims. We can still eat with everyone else. And that makes it much more likely that we can do this forever. What do you think?'

i think i do NOT feel like a victim. i feel EMPOWERED. i choose to not eat things that are bad for me, and i take responsibility for every thing i put in my body. i absolutely eat -with- everyone else. that doesn't mean that because my bf is eating french fries and fried chicken from chilis, that i automatically -have- to eat it too. that doesn't even make any sense. it sounds like you're overly concerned with what people think of you. if you actually are still on induction like your thingy says you are, you'll learn soon enough, most people dont give a crap whats on your plate. what makes me able to do this forever is learning self control, learning whats good for me, and stepping up to be an adult and be responsbile for what i eat because i want to be healthy. if someone offers me things i cant have, i say no thanks. thats the end of it, they really dont ride you about it. and even if they did, tell them to eff off.

[chinadoll]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

While I agree that we should be able to eat more "normally" at Maintenance, the fact is that fast food blossomed in the 70s and 80s and the 95% who were thinner before did not have the fast food and oversize portions that are now part of our daily diets. There have been a lot of articles over the years about how serving sizes have become huge compared to the 50s and how fast food has gone from a once a month treat to a daily staple, so I don't feel that eating a daily fast food lunch would ever allow me to maintain my weight loss. Will I be able to have a healthy sandwich on whole grain bread? Sure. Dr. Atkins even teaches me how to do so. What I like about doing this correctly is the fact that I am learning some foods DO in fact trigger big cravings so for me, those things will be off my list permanently.

As far as feeling deprived and never having something again---well, I don't feel that I am deprived by not eating certain things. I am enjoying my better health and increased energy more than the bloated tired feeling I had before. It's not about feeling like I am missing something. The sugar actually made me feel crummy. This woe has helped me identify the foods that make me feel heavy and tired so why would I choose to eat them again?

It does raise a curious question about what the average healthy diet was in say the 1950s as opposed to now. I am betting there was a lot less sugar and processed starch and a lot more real food including more veggies, leaner meats, water consumption, and fruits overall.

One thing--your status of 14 Day Induction on your header is probably misleading a bit. Makes folks wonder about your sincerity in raising this issue. I am not picking a fight, just making note of this as a point of fact since the site does have occasional pot stirrers who come in to mix things up and they generally are listed under the Induction header since they are new to the site.

Last thought---when we reach Maintenance level most of us will probably be eating a sandwich at the lunch counter, but of foregoing until I get there is what I need to do I will look like an "idiot" any day!

[momtomany1]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

Anyone who believes that sugar and white flour etc. is bad for you, should be sharing this knowledge! The 'idiocy' is eating things that are bad for you, not being the only one eating a bunless burger.

I am with you Jill, when I eat sugar my brain clouds up and I feel crummy too. Forget that, lol!

[deerfu39]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

Congradulations Sugarkang on your success. I'm gonna have to disagree with you [guess I'm in the 5% club]. Proir to 1970 our food supply wasn't nearly as processed as it is today. Sugar has become an ingredient in almost everything we eat even to the point of injecting meats with some type of solution containing it. We may be at the mercy of a food industry that may be very profit driven and not have our best interest at heart. Many people at work have tried their "own" versions of this diet and lost weight however when they slip back into their old habits [which were very similar to mine] again most all do regain. I know that there is some very complicated science behind all this but there is also some that's very simple. The keep it simple principle works for me.
I have never eaten better since I started this woe.

[IrishIrish]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

When I go out or am in "social situations", that is when my guard it up. Too many slippery slopes out there to put my "carb sobriety" in jeopardy. I eat my carbs at home, thank you, where I can have some control over my environment.

[whereami]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

i think i do NOT feel like a victim. i feel EMPOWERED. i choose to not eat things that are bad for me, and i take responsibility for every thing i put in my body. i absolutely eat -with- everyone else. that doesn't mean that because my bf is eating french fries and fried chicken from chilis, that i automatically -have- to eat it too. that doesn't even make any sense. it sounds like you're overly concerned with what people think of you. if you actually are still on induction like your thingy says you are, you'll learn soon enough, most people dont give a crap whats on your plate. what makes me able to do this forever is learning self control, learning whats good for me, and stepping up to be an adult and be responsbile for what i eat because i want to be healthy. if someone offers me things i cant have, i say no thanks. thats the end of it, they really dont ride you about it. and even if they did, tell them to eff off.

I could of written this word for word - There are so many food choices besides a sandwich that you could eat easily for lunch plus Im happy to eat what I have to in order to stay healthy and if anyone asks why Im eating like this Im also happy to educate them and explain to them why this WOE is healthy and works for me.

NOTHING TASTES BETTER THAN THIN!

[Emre Yigit]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

My 2 cents-worth.

I agree with the original poster in that we are all liable to lapse, and that hoping that we shall for the remainder of our days follow the Atkins WOL is a little too optimistic. But I disagree about the motives.

I'm not knocking the diet (it works) or its principles (they make sense).

The problem (and why Atkins originated in the US) seems to me that the modern mode of eating (including lots of processed foods, sugars, etc) is profoundly unhealthy. I doubt that the whole issue is carbs. I have lots of friends who eat rice regularly, and yet are slim and appear not to suffer from health problems. I have relatives who have eaten pulses and yoghurt almost every day of their lives and have been off fats and most meats for the past 20 years and who are skinny and only have health problems because they're 95 - and even Atkins cannot grant us immortality. At the end of the day, its a trade-off between exercise, portion size, and avoidance of the really egregious foods.

We're all human, and prone to lapse. I cannot say that I will never ever again have a doughnut. But if I do, I know how to compensate for it, thanks to Atkins. Never having been a binge eater - more an office couch potato - I figure that by the time I get to Phase IV, I should have trained myself to be careful about what I eat and to take exercise. Atkins has also taught me how different foods affect me. So I'll be wary of eating them. And I must admit - now that I'm on rung 7 - that the variety of foods that I can eat is more than satisfactory.

(Having followed the diet religiously, and still losing weight at a fair clip, I also notice that I have a pretty quick metabolism, so maybe I'm just one of the lucky guys.)

What I have also learned is that instead of taking the easy way out, and ordering pizza, I should think about what I eat. And I figure that if I take half as much care with my diet as my mother did with mine when I was little, I should be relatively OK. Especially if don't skimp on the exercise. In this, I am lucky not to be living in the US, aka the Land of Sweet Temptation and manic food portions.

To illustrate this point: this summer I went to the US on holiday (Orlando to be precise.) I like pancakes, so when I learnt what IHOP stood for, I popped in. First off, I realised that US pancakes are fat. Where I come from, they're much thinner (crepes, in fact) and if you want more than two, you'll just have to order two portions. Second, instead of having just one kind of filler - say some fruit or jam - they come loaded with all kinds of stuff. The waitress looked at me with deep sadness in her eyes when I told her that I really didn't want eggs, hash browns, sausages, orange juice, whipped cream and maple syrup on top of the pancakes. Whichever way you cut it, that is not a healthy meal.

So, when I enter maintenance, I shall avoid the silly stuff - the pasta, the cakes, the sugar, the bread (fortunately not a big bread person) - *most* of the time. After all, it seems to me that maintenance is essentially about eating sensibly, not entering a faddish whole new world of cooking. I expect that if you resolve to never ever eat something you like - say corn bread - once you do, you come off the wagon hard. I just promise myself to be sensible. And I will cut down on the fat content. And take Stevia, not sugar, with my tea or coffee.

But if I lived in the States, I grant that it would be much more difficult. A country that makes a fad of restaurants that have "all you can eat" buffets, breakfasts, lunches and dinners, whose small chocolate bars would be considered family size elsewhere and where a visit to the cinema must be accompanied by several to the toilet as the "small" coke size is enough to wash your clothes in is not a healthy place to live unless you happen to be permanently 16 and exercising like crazy. The proportion of morbidly obese people in the States is not surprising.

That being said, there is an easy way out, even in the States. I'm 42, and I have to do a fair bit of client entertaining. And in my country, if you skimp on food when it comes to family gatherings, client meetings or the like, its the height of bad manners. (One big advantage: our portion sizes are much smaller than in the US). But at these things, I just point out that "I have to be careful with my sugar" and everyone shuts up. It allows me to eat whatever I like. And a glass or two of wine does not interfere with my diet, so I am not exactly being a spoilsport. If, after saying that you are watching your sugar intake, your friends still pressure you to eat loads of unhealthy stuff, tell them to stuff it.

So I do not agree that office peer pressure is sufficient reason to stray too far from the Atkins diet maintenance phase. If we have to sin, let us enjoy it, not do so because we're pressured into it. And too much sin is always boring. A little can go a long way. Just ask the French.

[liv]

Re: Maintenance For Real People

Emre
Way to go on your Atkins journey. You've done so well. Good job

I think you make many good points. We seem to enjoy getting our money's worth when we go to restaurants over here and that may have led to the problem of giant portions. Breakfast joints are remarkable places. But as a person on Atkins I actually like them because I know they will always have legal options for me there

But I also believe with the low carb gurus that some people really are overly sensitive to certain carbs and will put on weight or increase their appetite and therefore eat more and put on weight just by eating starches and sugars. So in that sense the problem is not just that you eat a lot but the choices you make. The foods that you mention people you know eat, such as pulses and yogurt, are not anything like white bread, sugar and potato.

I am from Europe and I think the obesity epidemic has clearly moved there too. I think over-reliance on convenience foods is to blame particularly things like store bought breads and breakfast cereals (those has to be among the worst things a person can eat)

I don't think Atkins thought we would always eat like saints. In Atkins for Life he talks about how it is the choices we make most of the time that will count. There may be the odd exception here and there but that is OK as long as we choose the right food usually.

Also be a bit careful. I am kind of talking from experience and also by following threads of people here on ADBB that reached goal. Maintaining it darn hard. You think you can do this and that but for many of us we really cannot. So whatever you decide to do when you reach goal, do it slow. There is a big slippery slope out there.

Keep us updated. It is so good to hear about people who are following the program and having it work so well for them. We all need these kinds of updates.