Human Carnivorism

[CarnivorousAbe]

I'll introduce myself as this is my freshman post. My names Abe and I have decided (for my health) to embrace human carnivorism. In other words, zero-carb. I've been living it for 7 weeks now. I've lost nearly 50 pounds total and I don't experience any of the roller coaster blood sugar crap that seems to hamstring many a hopeful Atkins dieter.

Given that I would imagine the vast majority of you agree with a great deal, if not all of the information Gary Taubes presents in his book Good Calories Bad Calories, why do any of you consume the only nonessential macronutrient at all rather than self indulgence? We're all doing this for our health, but when it's found that there are links between carbs and nearly every westernized disease known to man (up to and including cancer) what's the draw to carbs?

Are there other currently active members of the board who embrace human carnivorism, zero-carb, or extreme low carb (as or more restrictive than atkins induction)? What is the take Atkinners have of zero-carb exaggerations of the atkins diet? Has anyone tried it but it simply could not work for them for some reason?

I'm mostly very interested in discussing the broadness of this topic with those interested.

Thanks if you read that wall of text.

[liv]

Re: Human Carnivorism

We follow the Atkins diet - not any other version - this is why we eat what we do. Now you have decided to do something different which is fine with me. But as everything with this board makes it clear - that is who we are. And we love it
Are we cool?

[CarnivorousAbe]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I wasn't calling anyone out. I was simply probing for conversation. I simply see carbs themselves as very harmful and unproductive overall. You outlined an important situation I'd like to shed light on in another post moments ago.

http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.com/forums/1108070-post12.html

That carb addiction you speak of is the addiction to insulin. And Insulin can only be manipulated by carbs. Hence if you do not take that "one bite" which helps to spike blood sugar levels, you maintain a level head. You said yourself that most of the time people can not cheat and then be "strong willed" about it. They simply go more outside diet to satisfy their insulin craving.

With all that said, and the knowledge of what harm it can do as well as what good it doesn't bring- what's the draw other than indulgence and a desire for variation?

[mitzimarie]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Given that I would imagine the vast majority of you agree with a great deal, if not all of the information Gary Taubes presents in his book Good Calories Bad Calories, why do any of you consume the only nonessential macronutrient at all rather than self indulgence?

Well, I would imagine that the vast majority of us have not read Taubes' book. I have, but most probably haven't. This is an Atkins board.


We're all doing this for our health, but when it's found that there are links between carbs and nearly every westernized disease known to man (up to and including cancer) what's the draw to carbs?

The link to disease is from refined carbs. We follow Atkins, and avoid refined carbs.

Are there other currently active members of the board who embrace human carnivorism, zero-carb, or extreme low carb (as or more restrictive than atkins induction)?

Oh yeah... there are a few of them out there. But the overwhelming majority of ADBB members follow the 2002 version of Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution, since that is the way of eating that this board follows.

The Atkins eating plan emphasizes the benefits of protein and natural fats - AND nutrient-rich carbohydrates. There is a difference in the quality of carbs. The crux of the matter is in limiting carbohydrates and in selecting the right carbohydrates, those most full of nutrients and fiber and those with the lowest impact on your blood sugar. So, not only is it important to choose foods with low carb counts, it is also crucial to select the most nutrient-dense carbohydrate foods. The goal is to eat as many "good" carbohydrates as your body can tolerate without interfering with weight loss or getting your blood sugar out of whack. And you will choose healthy, satisfying whole foods, ones that provide nutrients and fiber.
Vegetables, in general, contain "good" carbohydrates, although some are very high in carbs and not as high in nutrient value, and some are the reverse. Most vegetables provide fiber and many healthy phytonutrients (phyto means "plant"), those magical substances found in plants that help us ward off disease. Fortunately, the vegetables that are most dense in nutrients happen also to be those lowest in carbs.

I have read Taubes' book, and found it quite eye-opening in many ways. I don't, however, believe that vegetables provide no nutritional value to our bodies. Even in Maintenance, I am one of those who has to eat mainly from Rung 1 (vegetables), and don't usually eat over 35g to 40g net carbs. So I don't eat a lot of carbs, but I don't feel it is necessary to restrict carbs to zero, even to lose weight. And my bet is that it is not sustainable in the long run.

[CarnivorousAbe]

Re: Human Carnivorism

As for others not reading his book, it's a shame. As you say it is quite eye opening. I often loan my copy out to those who are interested in its potential talking points. Though extremely crunchy for the first third, it's got some fantastic evidence to lambast carbs.

When you talk of nutritionally dense foods your body does not see whole foods or combinations of ingredients, it sees a pile of components essentially. You can argue for or against how easily supplemental dietary aids are absorbed or utilized by the body, but my point still remains- carbs are completely nonessential and seem to only serve as a means to variety when you understand how responsible they are for diseases of various stripes.

I agree that refined carbohydrates are the major problem, but they're just more easily digestible versions of unprocessed carbs. So, basically it seems to be the aspartame argument for people wanting to cut calories. Sure it MAY be cancerous but I'd have to take a lot of it to die. A relatively low amount of unprocessed carbs may not throw a diabetic into shock, but it doesn't mean it's not possible that it's doing damage to the body.

Your claim of unsustainability is one of the same claims leveled against Atkins by its opponents, and I'm sure you disagree with them every time you hear/see it.



I'm really not trying to start arguments against Atkins, but this being the most popular low carb board on the internet as far as I can see I thought I'd find people of similar interest.

[goin2befit]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Hi and welcome to ADBB!!!! That is what it is... a board designed to follow Dr. Atkins! I'm sure there is plenty of arguments out there about what this diet or that diet or this or that way of eating can do for one's health. I believe everyone, if not all people on here try to follow Dr. Atkins.

It appears that you wish to follow Gary Taubes (which by the way never stats to eliminate all carbs!) There is plenty of low carb forums that have open discussions about other low carb/no carb diets such as

Active Low-Carber Forums - Atkins Diet & Low Carb Support Message Boards

Low Carb Friends

I'm sure more people there have looked for other alternatives to Atkins and some may follow Atkins and failed on it. Most of us here are succeeding or have succeeded and just hit a few bumps along the way. For those that didn't succeed for what ever reason, they have mostly MOVED on... So I doubt they will be able to give you much of a discussion.

I'm really not trying to start arguments against Atkins, but this being the most popular low carb board on the internet as far as I can see I thought I'd find people of similar interest.

Again, this is not a "low carb board" it is a 100% "ATKINS diet bulletin board"!!!

Please feel free to stick around and ask questions about ABDD.... and make sure you have read the book as well, a lot of great information in there.

Happy Low-Carbing!

[Empyre]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Hi and welcome to ADBB!!!! That is what it is... a board designed to follow Dr. Atkins! I'm sure there is plenty of arguments out there about what this diet or that diet or this or that way of eating can do for one's health. I believe everyone, if not all people on here try to follow Dr. Atkins.

It appears that you wish to follow Gary Taubes (which by the way never stats to eliminate all carbs!) There is plenty of low carb forums that have open discussions about other low carb/no carb diets such as

Active Low-Carber Forums - Atkins Diet & Low Carb Support Message Boards

Low Carb Friends

I'm sure more people there have looked for other alternatives to Atkins and some may follow Atkins and failed on it. Most of us here are succeeding or have succeeded and just hit a few bumps along the way. For those that didn't succeed for what ever reason, they have mostly MOVED on... So I doubt they will be able to give you much of a discussion.



Again, this is not a "low carb board" it is a 100% "ATKINS diet bulletin board"!!!

Please feel free to stick around and ask questions about ABDD.... and make sure you have read the book as well, a lot of great information in there.

Happy Low-Carbing!

I don't really think CarnivorousAbe is trying to take over the ADBB, or even force anyone onto his view(s). His post is in the general section of the forum and thus I imagine is open to general discussion.

I could only hope that if I wished to post in here whether it be about Gary Taubes or flip flops, that I could engage in conversation regardless of my stance on any topic(s).

I personally find this topic interesting (<<That doesn't mean its going to change my religion etc or anything) I hope this "push back" doesn't detour others from engaging in various ideas.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I don't really think CarnivorousAbe is trying to take over the ADBB, or even force anyone onto his view(s). His post is in the general section of the forum and thus I imagine is open to general discussion.

General discussion is fine. However, he is stating his opinion as if were fact when he states:

When you talk of nutritionally dense foods your body does not see whole foods or combinations of ingredients, it sees a pile of components essentially. You can argue for or against how easily supplemental dietary aids are absorbed or utilized by the body, but my point still remains- carbs are completely nonessential and seem to only serve as a means to variety when you understand how responsible they are for diseases of various stripes. I agree that refined carbohydrates are the major problem, but they're just more easily digestible versions of unprocessed carbs.

Umm... you'll excuse me if I choose to believe the opinion of my physician, who is 100% pro-Atkins, and someone I trust and feel fortunate to have caring for me. Vegetables are good for you, in my opinion.

Your claim of unsustainability is one of the same claims leveled against Atkins by its opponents, and I'm sure you disagree with them every time you hear/see it.

Oh c'mon, now... you can not seriously compare the sustainability between eating a menu with zero carbs and eating a menu with 35g to 40g net carbs coming from vegetables. That is a ton of veggies, providing an amazing amount of variety, thus making the menu much more varied and sustainable than merely existing on meat, chicken, seafood, and oils.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I personally find this topic interesting (<<That doesn't mean its going to change my religion etc or anything) I hope this "push back" doesn't detour others from engaging in various ideas.

One more thing - how come it's OK for him to state his opinion, but it is classified as a "push back" when I state mine? You wanted discussion; you got it.

[goin2befit]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I don't really think CarnivorousAbe is trying to take over the ADBB, or even force anyone onto his view(s). His post is in the general section of the forum and thus I imagine is open to general discussion.

(General section of ADBB!)

I could only hope that if I wished to post in here whether it be about Gary Taubes or flip flops, that I could engage in conversation regardless of my stance on any topic(s).

(There is subjects of all sorts... even a thread if you look down a little that talks about the book he is referencing... So of course we are open to discussions... )

I personally find this topic interesting

Maybe I've read his post all wrong, however, he is not here for Atkins he is here to embrace "human carnivorism", "have zero-carbs", and "question why we comsume the only nonessential macronutrient"

Given this information... He is not here for Atkins. In my post I directed him to other forums that may have some "experiential people" who are human carnivores and have zero carbs... I doubt he will find any here. So my best intention was directed.

Like yourself, I doubt our debates or discussions about how carbs are good for you and we need the right ones will change his religion or anything about what his belief is right now. I doubt he will start eatting 20 net carbs a day... and I doubt he needs support or encouragement of how to do Atkins... and I believe that is why we are all here. To educate, support, and share others as we continue our journey of our life.

I'm truely sorry if you felt my response was close minded in the sense that I'm not open to discussion. For I've discussed several things and have reflected on many post in the main forum that talks about Atkins in combination with this or that... Like the lady that is doing Atkins and started taking Alli... it was interesting to see the view points.. .or for Norman who is body building and following Atkins part time and does a few things on his own... so yes... but the key is they are atleast participating with ATKINS. That is my point and I hope I made it clear!

I'll introduce myself as this is my freshman post. My names Abe and I have decided (for my health) to embrace human carnivorism. In other words, zero-carb.

why do any of you consume the only nonessential macronutrient at all rather than self indulgence?

Are there other currently active members of the board who embrace human carnivorism, zero-carb, or extreme low carb (as or more restrictive than atkins induction)?

One more thing - how come it's OK for him to state his opinion, but it is classified as a "push back" when I state mine? You wanted discussion; you got it.

Mitzi~ I think Empyre was refering to me as the push back b/c I simply directed him towards another board where he may be able to find people to discuss or engage in his thinking... And by no means am I stating he can't discuss, I'm just saying there isn't to much to discuss b/c there is different beliefs. (Kinda like discussing Judiaism with Hinduism... there isn't even a real common ground to have a discussion about!!!)

[Georgiana]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I'm really not trying to start arguments against Atkins, but this being the most popular low carb board on the internet as far as I can see

It is, isn’t it? Thanks.

I thought I'd find people of similar interest.

While I am thrilled by the fact that you think we're the most popular, I think you didn't check the name of the Board carefully. It's ATKINS DIET Bulletin Board. So, as you should realize, we are not a general low carb board, but a Board where members are following the Atkins Diet. If you Google "low carb board" you'll find plenty of boards where members are following other low carb plans, including "zero carb" diets.

I checked your Live Journal (here: CarnivorousAbe) and it seems to me you are not really following a carnivorous diet. I mean, string cheese is not exactly carnivorous, ya' know? And I don't think carnivore societies were downing their meat with Hansen's Soda either (I realize you probably gave that up by now). Or cooking in butter. So, your statement that you've been following a "completely carnivorous" diet (since June 16th or 17th, according to the entries in your journal) is not exactly true.

You are also saying in your first post in this thread that you are doing a zero-carb diet. Again, that is not happening. Cheese has carbs, eggs have carbs, deli meat (ham, bacon) likely has some carbs and might be cured with sugar (even if the carbs are zero per serving according to the label, that only means they are below 0.5 g per serving), sausages have some carbs, and if you are using some spices on your food they have carbs too. So, for the sake of semantics, let's just call your diet a very low carb diet without plant foods. This, by the way, is not Atkins Induction, as your profile info says, because Atkins requires 3 daily cups of vegetables.


Anyway, regarding very low carb diets without plant foods, here's my opinion on them: it's like killing mosquitoes with a bazooka. Unless one is extremely metabolically resistant, there is no need to take such a radical approach. And, according to Dr. Atkins, about 1% of the people are so metabolically resistant that they need to lower their carbs much below 20 g and increase fat up to 70-90%. It is for these super high metabolically resistant folks why he added the Fat Fast in DANDR. But the other 99% of the population, can do very well eating Induction level of carbs and many can go above 20 net carbs daily. So 99% of the population can increase their carbs above 20 g, up to a level that allows for weight loss (if weight loss is necessary) and for health improvement. This is something that Dr. Atkins tested on tens of thousands of patients in over 30 years. So unless you show me a major, reviewed study that proves that most people need to give up all plant foods and go close to 0 carbs to gain the health benefits Atkins Inductioners are getting (and more than that!), you won't convince me that eating no carbs from plant sources is more healthy than choosing a controlled-carbohydrate approach that incorporates some nuts, low carb vegetables or berries.

Very low carbohydrate diets comprised of only meat can be followed without any ill effects on one's health, as we know from Eskimos and as it was shown in the Bellevue experiment. However, I seriously doubt the diet of the average "zero carber" is the same as that of the Eskimos or of Stefansson and Andersen. Eskimos were eating kidney and intestinal caribou fat, caribou kidneys and hearts, other organ meats (and, by the way, organ meats have carbs), caribou tissue from behind the eyes, tendons, bone marrow and raw fish (including heads and tails). They were chewing on bone ends, and eating their meats raw, aged or boiled. Stefansson and Andersen also ate most of their meats boiled during the 1-year Bellevue experiment. Their meat was usually "cooked lightly" and they ate raw bone marrow. Furthermore, their diet was approximately 80% fat and 20% protein.

Your diet, as I can see from your Live Journal, is closer to 60% fat, 40% protein. I am sure most "zero carbers" have a similar diet, not one of 80% fat. And most "zero carbers" certainly do not have a diet in which they eat raw bone marrow, lightly cooked meat, liver and brains fried in bacon grease, etc. or one in which they boil most meats, eat fish bones and chew on rib ends. Food processing is also different in the Western world now than it was in 1930, and it is definitely different than it is among Inuits. Therefore, it is impossible to extrapolate from the high fat diet of Inuits (or the "fake" Inuit diet analyzed by McClellan and Du Bois at the Bellevue Hospital) to a diet consisting of chicken thighs and drumsticks, hamburger meat, sausages, salami and whatever meats you buy "just because it's meat" from the grocery store.

Also, while we know that a high fat meat-only diet did not cause ill health effects for Stefansson, Andersen or the Inuits, we do not know if the few berries and other plants Inuits were eating during the warm months improved, worsen or made no difference in their health. So the only thing we know is that a high fat meat-only diet can be healthy if the meats are chosen wisely. We do not know if a high fat meat-only diet or a not-so-high-fat meat-only diet is healthier than Atkins Induction or than any other phase of Atkins as long as one controls the sources, types and amounts of carbohydrates.

This is why your reasoning here

We're all doing this for our health, but when it's found that there are links between carbs and nearly every westernized disease known to man (up to and including cancer) what's the draw to carbs?

and here

I simply see carbs themselves as very harmful and unproductive overall.

is faulty. It's like saying that doctors should stop prescribing drugs because they can be lethal. Sure they are, if you overdose and/or take meds you don't need.

With all that said, and the knowledge of what harm it can do as well as what good it doesn't bring- what's the draw other than indulgence and a desire for variation?

Eating a slice of cake doesn't bring any good. True. But you cannot dismiss all the scientific evidence for the health benefits of phenols and polyphenols, vitamins, minerals, fiber and flavonoids found in plants. One can stay healthy on a high fat meat-only diet if done wisely, but the average Joe that does his weekly shopping at Walmart and throws in the cart whatever meats are on sale doesn't have the knowledge to put together a healthy meat-only diet. Or at least not one proved to be healthy if one looks at the meat-only diet of Stefansson and Andersen. So unless you are eating raw bone marrow, liver, brains, fish bones and brains cooked in bacon fat, it's a good idea to supplement your diet with micronutrients coming from plant sources. And, personally, I prefer eating some spinach rather than fish heads and tails.

You wrote:

That carb addiction you speak of is the addiction to insulin. And Insulin can only be manipulated by carbs. Hence if you do not take that "one bite" which helps to spike blood sugar levels, you maintain a level head. You said yourself that most of the time people can not cheat and then be "strong willed" about it. They simply go more outside diet to satisfy their insulin craving.

Actually, it's the addiction to carbohydrates, not to insulin. Insulin is simply a hormone released as a response to increased blood sugar levels. I doubt anyone has an addiction to "tickling" their islets of Langerhans. What people are addicted to is chocolate, ice cream, pasta, etc.

You are also confusing a cheat with eating a cup of broccoli. It’s not the same thing. I'm telling you, when we see people coming on the Board with an "I cheated last night" thread, they didn't cheat with five cups of broccoli instead of one. Most people don't have a veggie addiction. And as I wrote somewhere above, most people can safely eat a cup of broccoli (just an example) without causing a spike in their blood sugar.

You landed on an Atkins Board, but you don't seem to be well-informed about Atkins. On Atkins, we are controlling our blood sugar levels. Most people (~99% of them, as Dr. Atkins observed) can do this with no problems while eating Induction level carbs with three daily cups of vegetables. Further in the Diet, as one slowly adds back foods, one is supposed to be aware of any blood sugar instability, figure out the trigger food and stop eating it. In the end, one has a list of trigger foods and food combinations and two numbers, the CCLL and CCLM, which tell one how many carbs he/she can eat while losing or maintaing weight and also from what foods these carbs should come from. So unless one is extremely sensitive to carbs, there is nothing wrong with enjoying a variety of veggies, nuts, berries, etc. along with meat, cheese, eggs and fats.

When you talk of nutritionally dense foods your body does not see whole foods or combinations of ingredients, it sees a pile of components essentially.

Pile, combination... same stuff here. You either are getting the micronutrients your body needs to stay healthy or you aren't. And it does matter if a food is nutritionally dense, because the fiber helps control blood sugar levels, while vitamins and minerals allow your body to maintain/improve general health. As for dietary supplements, they are called supplements for a reason.

A relatively low amount of unprocessed carbs may not throw a diabetic into shock, but it doesn't mean it's not possible that it's doing damage to the body.

Do you have any proof that eating 3 cups of veggies per day can do damage to my body? Or that eating some nuts or berries can do damage to my body as long as they don't cause a spike in my blood sugar? I'd be happy to read any study if you give me the link to it.

And by the way, I hope you didn't have eggs for breakfast, because there are as many net carbs in one egg as in a cup of spinach.

[Slapshot]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I checked your Live Journal (here: CarnivorousAbe) and it seems to me you are not really following a carnivorous diet. I mean, string cheese is not exactly carnivorous, ya' know? And I don't think carnivore societies were downing their meat with Hansen's Soda either (I realize you probably gave that up by now). Or cooking in butter. So, your statement that you've been following a "completely carnivorous" diet (since June 16th or 17th, according to the entries in your journal) is not exactly true.

I could be wrong, but I thought by "carnivorous" he's loosely referring to lipolysis, not just eating meat (i.e. eschewing vegetables/carbs, and living on one's own stores for energy):

embrace human carnivorism. In other words, zero-carb

All your other points are well-made.....

[Slapshot]

Re: Human Carnivorism

However, Georgiana, there is one caveat I would add here:

I doubt anyone has an addiction to "tickling" their islets of Langerhans.

...well, this all depends on where those islets are located...

[Georgiana]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I could be wrong, but I thought by "carnivorous" he's loosely referring to lipolysis, not just eating meat (i.e. eschewing vegetables/carbs, and living on one's own stores for energy):

embrace human carnivorism. In other words, zero-carb

All your other points are well-made.....

It could be "no veggies" what he loosely meant, Slapshot. But I don't consider cheese sticks, mozzarella and diet sodas to be part of a carnivorous diet.

I'm not sure how "carnivorous" is referring to lipolysis... In any case, even if one does not eat plant foods, glucose is still produced in the body and one is definitely not living (solely) on one's own stores for energy.

[Slapshot]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I'm not sure how "carnivorous" is referring to lipolysis... In any case, even if one does not eat plant foods, glucose is still produced in the body and one is definitely not living (solely) on one's own stores for energy.

Point well taken. You're right. When I saw "carnivorous" I thought of a loosely metaphorical reference to lipolysis, and living on one's own stores (and not consumed carbs) for energy. Your gluconeogenesis (sp) reference is well taken!