Human Carnivorism

[chellybobs]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Call me shallow, dumb or what you like, i just dont think as scientifically as most, but my thoughts on a purely carniverous diet is...

OMG HOW BORING!!! Purely meat and fish, i would enjoy that as much as i would being a vegan!!

Personally, I know Atkins is strict, but from what pleasure I loose from potatoes etc, I gain in pleasure from CREAM in my coffee and not eating low fat, tasteless foods.

But still 'each to their own' and if the world was a place where everyone did the same or liked the same, how boring would that be!!

Chelle xxx

[andilsk5]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Georgiana,
What an awesome post! CarnivorousAbe was looking for some conversation regarding carbs etc. You definitely laid it all out. Very interesting.

[ThinSoon]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Abe - there are many that follow the zero carb way of life. There is a board on the internet actually for those who follow it. I've been to it, it is quite interesting and those that follow it love it. Just as those who love atkins follow this one.

If you want the link to the board, PM me and I'll send it your way!

Happy zero carbing.

Tracey

[Georgiana]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Talking about the definition of "carnivorism". I think this is a general problem with diets that are not well-defined. I can understand one thing by "carnivorous diet", Abe can understand something else (meat, cheese, butter, eggs and fats), and someone else might say a carnivorous diet is meat only with fats from the animal and occasional eggs.

Same thing with zero carbs. For me zero is zero, not epsilon (joke for Norman)... but some people may say cheese and eggs are okay on a zero carb diet, just because they have very few carbs per serving.

[phil h]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I don't see how one could ever eat a zero carb diet.As georgianna said, there are carbs in a lot of foods that we consider carbless.These are minimal and one could easily get by on less than 5 gms daily.So zero carbs is really very low carbs.I think someone being content on this diet is less than Atkins.It would take a highly motivated individual.

[neutronnorman]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Same thing with zero carbs. For me zero is zero, not epsilon (joke for Norman)....

Cheez...Georgiana, I was reading this post happily and not wanting to post a reply but you yanked me out of the silence! What the heck does the definition of limits have to do with me? Cheez...scientific girls...

[dthomps]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I'm interested in learning more about the topic. I may go buy the book. Even if I read it and decide human carnivorism is a healthier way to eat, it won't change my stance on Atkins. I know for certain that I need SOME carbs if for no other reason than not to die of food boredom. So, if I get a vote, I say, bring on more of the discussion!

[SunnySmile501]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Talking about the definition of "carnivorism". I think this is a general problem with diets that are not well-defined. I can understand one thing by "carnivorous diet", Abe can understand something else (meat, cheese, butter, eggs and fats), and someone else might say a carnivorous diet is meat only with fats from the animal and occasional eggs.

Same thing with zero carbs. For me zero is zero, not epsilon (joke for Norman)... but some people may say cheese and eggs are okay on a zero carb diet, just because they have very few carbs per serving.

Even a true carnivore (wolves, etc.) gets vegetation and carbohydrates by eating the whole animal, including the digestive tract (offal), filled with the last meal the herbivore (deer, elk, moose) ate they just took down. That's why they recommend that you feed the offal to dogs that are on a raw meaty bones diet, or else feed them some raw veggies.

[msanjelpie]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Reading the live journal was interesting...

[FwL]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Very low carbohydrate diets comprised of only meat can be followed without any ill effects on one's health, as we know from Eskimos and as it was shown in the Bellevue experiment. However, I seriously doubt the diet of the average "zero carber" is the same as that of the Eskimos or of Stefansson and Andersen. Eskimos were eating kidney and intestinal caribou fat, caribou kidneys and hearts, other organ meats (and, by the way, organ meats have carbs), caribou tissue from behind the eyes, tendons, bone marrow and raw fish (including heads and tails). They were chewing on bone ends, and eating their meats raw, aged or boiled. Stefansson and Andersen also ate most of their meats boiled during the 1-year Bellevue experiment. Their meat was usually "cooked lightly" and they ate raw bone marrow. Furthermore, their diet was approximately 80% fat and 20% protein.

I'm not sure why this is such a touchy subject around here. I guess everybody is defensive about "not eating enough carbs" already.

Anyway... by Stefansson's own account, this is not a very accurate description of what and how he and Andersen ate during the Bellevue experiment... nor how he described the Eskinmo diet as he understood it. He went to great lengths to dispell these and several other misconceptions in his book 'Not by Bread Alone'.

Anyone interested can download a pdf of Stefansson's book (expanded and retitled 'The Fat of the Land') at www.zerocarbage.com/library/FOTL.pdf

[pinkfusion]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I havent read all of the posts, but I would say that I would probably never do a no carb diet. The only carbs that I eat these days are from fruits and vegetables and then the carbs that are in the things that we dont normally expect to have carbs. I dont miss the refined carbs really at all. The unhealthiest thing that I have eaten lately is Carb Smart ice cream. Even that I can live without

I'm very happy with atkins.

[Georgiana]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Anyway... by Stefansson's own account, this is not a very accurate description of what and how he and Andersen ate during the Bellevue experiment... nor how he described the Eskinmo diet as he understood it. He went to great lengths to dispell these and several other misconceptions in his book 'Not by Bread Alone'.

Excerpts from W. McClellan & E. Du Bois, "Prolonged Meat Diets With a Study of Kidney Function and Ketosis", The Journal of Biological Chemistry, 1930:

The meat used included beef, lamb, veal, pork, and chicken. The parts used were muscle, liver, kidney, brain, bone marrow, bacon, and fat. While on lecture trips V.S. occasionally ate a few eggs and a little butter when meat was not readily obtainable.

The protein content of the diet ranged from 100 to 140 gm., the fat, from 200 to 300 gm., and the carbohydrate from 7 to 12 gm. The calorie value varied from 2000 to 3100 calories per day. 15 to 25 per cent of the calories were derived from protein, 75 to 85 per cent from fat, and 1 to 2 per cent from carbohydrate.

In this experiment, it was found that boiled meat was preferred to fried. Broiled steaks and chops were used,---V. S. choosing lamb frequently while K. A. ate beef almost exclusively. The meat was usually cooked lightly and the bone marrow eaten raw. Raw frozen meat was requested as a variation but no method of freezing it was available. The men generally took three but sometimes four meals daily. A sample menu for the day, given in raw weights follows.

Breakfast: lean beef, 190 gm.; fat, 100 gm.
Dinner: liver, 200 gm.; fat, 75 gm.
Supper: lean beef, 200 gm.; marrow, 70 gm.

The meat was usually cut from the bone and trimmed before weighing and cooking. In Period 7, V. S. ate "from the bone" which was the method of choice of both men, but this made the sampling of meat for analysis more difficult. The meat used during the first 3 months was selected from freshly killed animals; for the remainder of the time refrigerated meat from local markets was eaten.

Excerpts from V. Stefansson, "Adventures in Diet", Harper's Monthly Magazine, December 1935:

First she cut off the head [of the fish] and put them aside to be boiled for the children in the afternoon (Eskimos are fond of children, and heads are considered the best part of the fish). Next best are the tails, which are cut off and saved for the children also.

The only way in which the diet was not identical with the food analyzed was that Andersen and I followed the Eskimo custom of eating fish bones and chewing the rib ends; from these sources we no doubt obtained a certain amount of calcium.

The experiment started smoothly with Andersen, who was permitted to eat in such quantity as he liked such things as he liked, provided only that they came under our definition of meat - steaks, chops, brains fried in bacon fat, boiled short-ribs, chicken, fish, liver and bacon. In my case there was a hitch, in a way foreseen.

Up north the Eskimos and I had been cured immediately when we got some fat. Dr. DuBois now cured me the same way, by giving me fat sirloin steaks, brains fried in bacon fat, and things of that sort. In two or three days I was all right, but I had lost considerable weight.

Excerpts from V. Stefansson, "The Fat of the Land", The MacMillan Company, 1960:

Among the Mackenzie River Eskimos, the head was considered the best part of the caribou---not just the tongue and brain, though both were relished, but the head as a whole. Among the best parts of it were the fat behind eye and the meat, a blend of lean and fat, inside the angle of the lower jaw.

After the head come, in descending order of preference, brisket, ribs, pelvis and backbone. The principle applies that "the sweetest meat is nearest the bone"; excess outside meat is frequently peeled off from the backbone for dog feed, and sometimes from the ribs.

If there are four in a family and if they have a team of eight dogs, they divide the caribou nearly half and half, for two well-furred fifty-pound dogs that sleep outdoors in the cold eat about as much as one man who is well dressed and housed.

Beginning with what is least desired by the family, the dogs get the tenderloin, lungs, liver, sweetbreads, and everything else from the body except the kidney and intestinal fat, the kidney themselves and the heart. Most of the meat is peeled off the hams for dog feed. Humerus and femur are saved for boiling, with what meat remains on them, and these bones are broken for marrow while hot. The other long bones of fore and hind legs are cleaned of all meat and saved up to crack for the raw marrow, which may be used with a meal or, in small quantity, eaten raw between meals, somewhat as we eat candy.

Our regimen permitted ordering broiled chicken in a restaurant, but not fried; because the frying might be in butter or even in olive oil.

For the summer Andersen and I took a small house near Croton, New York, and did our own cooking. Our chief motive for home cooking was to get a mutton, beef or chicken broth in which we had confidence and which we liked after many years of having used caribou and seal broth in the Arctic. During those several months we lived mainly on boiled meats, including fish. A practice that amused or horrified our friends, according to their predilections, was we ate bones.

In New York City during the Russell Sage tests, and at Croton, we ate a lot of bones. We cleaned up a broiled spring chicken as completely as an Eskimo would a ptarmigan, and we selected portions of other animals at butcher shops somewhat with reference to the chewability of the bones, which tasted as good in New York as they ever had up North.

[mizski]

Re: Human Carnivorism

Oh my...reading that makes me want to be a vegan. jk

[Georgiana]

Re: Human Carnivorism

I'm not sure why this is such a touchy subject around here. I guess everybody is defensive about "not eating enough carbs" already.

Bad guess FwL, at least if you are referring to my post (which is what you quoted). I never said one is "not eating enough carbs", because there are carbs in foods other than vegetables, plus glycogen in the meat. Furthermore, the needed glucose can be obtained part from protein and part from fat via gluconeogenesis.

[liv]

Re: Human Carnivorism

That does take me back to my childhood. I ate some seal, whale, reindeer and a lot of fish when I grew up. And yes we rarely threw out anything. Fish innards and heads are still among my favourite things.
Interesting stuff