Something has been bothering me...

[chauber]

on this board. I have read posts telling people that they are not following DANDR2002's Induction rules unless the do this and that. One of those rules is regarding vegie intake during Induction. From what I have read the consensous on this board is that you are required to eat the 3 cups of salad vegies or 2 cups salad vegies and 1 cup of the allowable other vegies. Many times people even are saying that not eating these may be a reason for stalls and such.

This was not how I remembered the book. So I pulled out my well worn copy and re-read the Induction rules and found out that it clearly states that you CAN eat those vegies...not that it is a requirement. I could not find any concrete proof that Dr. Atkins REQUIRED or SUGGESTED that you had to eat those...only that you can as long as you stay in the 20 gram and total cup requirement.More specifically I read this information on page 123, rule number 3. Then rule number 6 says to adjust the quantity you eat to suit your appetite. Which I interpret to mean if you only want 1 cup of allowable vegies a day and you are still losing weight, then all is good, and you are on plan.

Can anyone else lead me to a page in the book that says otherwise?

[RitaCeleste]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

To be honest, I rarely eat all the servings of veggies that are allowed. Sometimes I eat 12 oz of broccoli with two slices of cheese though I understand that is more of the other veggie type than allowed on induction. I usually stick to induction strictly for only the first two weeks. But when I type what I ate into fitday and my carbs are at 5% or 6% or 7%, it seems wrong to eat more of everything to keep my %'s straight. I am not going around measuring and weighing everything, but I'm pretty close. Actually I have different copy of the book so I can't find some of the things people are talking about. I just accepted that they read it in their official copy. Its good for you to eat your veggies and it keeps you regular if you know what I mean. But he says you can eat it in my book. It reads like a do it. But in another place he says if you aren't loosing on 20g carb, try zero carb. Okay its in the extreme metabolic resistance section, but its in my unofficial copy. But he does talk about wanting people to add as many carbs back as they can and still loose too. My very unofficial take on it is its gonna depend on the person what level of carbs they end up being able to eat. But you are free to be extremely metabolicly resistant and forgo some stuff if you are.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

on this board. I have read posts telling people that they are not following DANDR2002's Induction rules unless the do this and that. One of those rules is regarding vegie intake during Induction. From what I have read the consensous on this board is that you are required to eat the 3 cups of salad vegies or 2 cups salad vegies and 1 cup of the allowable other vegies. Many times people even are saying that not eating these may be a reason for stalls and such.

This was not how I remembered the book. So I pulled out my well worn copy and re-read the Induction rules and found out that it clearly states that you CAN eat those vegies...not that it is a requirement. I could not find any concrete proof that Dr. Atkins REQUIRED or SUGGESTED that you had to eat those...only that you can as long as you stay in the 20 gram and total cup requirement.More specifically I read this information on page 123, rule number 3. Then rule number 6 says to adjust the quantity you eat to suit your appetite. Which I interpret to mean if you only want 1 cup of allowable vegies a day and you are still losing weight, then all is good, and you are on plan.

Can anyone else lead me to a page in the book that says otherwise?

QUOTE:
3. Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables. You can eat approximately three loosely packed cups of salad, or two cups of salad plus one cup of other vegetables (see Acceptable Foods).

While it is true that it states that you can (rather than must) eat approximately three loosely packed cups of salad, or two cups of salad plus one cup of other vegetables, it also says that most of the 20 grams must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables. If you can get more than half of your carbs from less than 3 cups of veggies, theoretically you are still following the plan. However, while it is not impossible to get 11g net carbs (which is the minimum number required to be more than half of 20g) from less than 3 cups of veggies, you would have to pick those few veggies very carefully to make sure you get that many.

As to advising people to add veggies to jumpstart weight loss - I am the one who heads the SemiAnnual Veggie Challenges each year, and I can tell you from experience that this works VERY OFTEN. All you have to do is research the threads from past challenges to see that this is the case.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

Then rule number 6 says to adjust the quantity you eat to suit your appetite. Which I interpret to mean if you only want 1 cup of allowable vegies a day and you are still losing weight, then all is good, and you are on plan.

Me, again... wanted to address rule #6:

6. Adjust the quantity you eat to suit your appetite, especially as it decreases. When you're hungry, eat the amount that makes you feel satisfied, but not stuffed. When you're not hungry, eat a small controlled carbohydrate snack to accompany your nutritional supplements.

He's talking total amount of all foods. He is saying that you should not gorge yourself .... only eat until satisfied. This is not a loophole to get out of eating veggies... rule #3 still stays in effect... most of your net carbs should be in the form of salad greens and veggies.

[liv]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

There is also a "let us sing a song of veggies" sub chapter in the book (on pg 84) . Here Atkins says something that is a bit shocking but I think true for so many of us that "it is just possible...that [on Atkins] you will eat more vegetables than you ever ate before".

Exciting stuff veggies. And I am looking forward to the veggie challenge. I am so joining this year.

[chauber]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

I understand that it is not meant to get you out of eat vegies...and the 20 gram is a limit not an absolute, it is a maximum...so if my carbs for the day are only 10 then only half of those should be from the vegies. I am not trying to rebel against what Dr. A wrote, I just read it a little different than you do. I am just trying to get the point across for those that do NOT ALWAYS, but ALMOST ALWAYS eat up to the limit of vegies they are still eating on plan. There are days that I only eat a cup of salad...just because I think I might puke if I eat anymore...but according to the book that I have read and re-read (at least 20 times since 2003) there are maximum limits of vegies, but not a YOU MUST EAT AT LEAST this many.

And again when I was mentioning rule number 6 I wasn't thinking about gorging, I was again meaning that it is ok to not shove the 3 cups of vegies down my throat every day.

I don't want to cause an uproar...but this seems to be something that has been brought up many times. For me personally, if I eat the exact amounts (even if it is only 3 cups of lettuce each day) it can cause me to stall for weeks (or did back in 2003 when I was on Atkins originally). I found it best for me to go by my appetite and adjust my vegies each day (only up to the limit) as my stomach could handle.

[liv]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

.so if my carbs for the day are only 10 then only half of those should be from the vegies

I think you need to say that if my carbs for the day are only 10 then veggies should be at least half of those.

When I am on induction I may not eat many carbs. But they are all either from eggs or from veggies. I avoid dairy, tea, sweeteners and other stuff like that that has carbs. So veggies are almost 100% of my carbs on induction.

An old member we had around here used to tell newbies to eat veggies because "veggies don't make you fat" So I think that gorging on veggies is not going to be much of danger for anybody staying overweight.
I think we are in agreement on the MUST part though. There is no must.

[RitaCeleste]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

Heh! Yeah, try typing everything into fitday to see what % carbs your day is working out to. I find atleast 5% is not three whole cups for me. And yes I could up everything to make things balance out but no I couldn't loose weight eating all that. I'd to espcially thank Mitzi for stating the amount of carbs that should come from of your veggies. It isn't real clear in my unoffical copy and I am at the point of being able to pick other things but must still keep my carbs low. It was really helpful to me.

[chauber]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

I think you need to say that if my carbs for the day are only 10 then veggies should be at least half of those.

When I am on induction I may not eat many carbs. But they are all either from eggs or from veggies. I avoid dairy, tea, sweeteners and other stuff like that that has carbs. So veggies are almost 100% of my carbs on induction.

I think that hits on what I was meaning.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

the 20 gram is a limit not an absolute, it is a maximum...so if my carbs for the day are only 10 then only half of those should be from the vegies.

Yes, that would be correct... 20g is the maximum. So if you are only eating 10g, then 6g of those should be in the form of veggies, which could certainly be less than 3 cups.


And again when I was mentioning rule number 6 I wasn't thinking about gorging, I was again meaning that it is ok to not shove the 3 cups of vegies down my throat every day.

I still don't think that rule #6 has anything to do with veggies, specifically... it is meant to warn us not to gorge on any foods (even if they have zero carbs). Because while Dr. Atkins said that we don't need to count calories, that does NOT mean that calories don't count. Even a person who eats *no* carbs can stall or even gain weight if they eat in excess.

For me personally, if I eat the exact amounts (even if it is only 3 cups of lettuce each day) it can cause me to stall for weeks (or did back in 2003 when I was on Atkins originally). I found it best for me to go by my appetite and adjust my vegies each day (only up to the limit) as my stomach could handle.

I would think that it is a rare case, indeed, for a person to stall on 3 cups of lettuce. While I suppose it is not impossible for this to happen, my bet is that it is something else in the menu that is causing the stall... either an intolerance to a particular food, too many calories, or hidden carbs.


If stomach issues are your problem, you could try taking Beano when eating veggies. My husband does this often, and it works very well.

[RitaCeleste]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

Yeah, its probably not the lettuce but all the stuff I want on top of it. I'd rather eat more of the other veggies and leave off some lettuce some days. But salad veggies arn't just lettuce right? I am sure I could eat three cups of lettuce with salad dressing and be okay. But I don't just have it THAT way! And I almost always opt for something else on cup three. And there is the sticky point, my 8ozs turns out to be 9ozs... then I feel like that bowl of lettuce is too much. I guess that's why it comes out close in the % of what I "actually" injested. And no, I probably don't get enough lettuce now that I think about it, DARN! The real problem with my lettuce is probably that it tends to have shredded cheese all over it! Plus I use cheese as a snack so that's probably the real limit I go over, the cheese limit. Hmm, learn something new everything I bother to think, whatdayaknow. DUH!

[Elizellen]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

But salad veggies arn't just lettuce right?

Good point, Rita
You could do Atkins without ever touching a mouthful of lettuce if you use some of the many other more nutritious and tasty veggies from the 'salad list' instead.
I sometimes think it is a pity Dr Atkins called that list the 'salad vegetable' list. If he had called the two veg lists the '2-3 cup list' and the '1 cup list' it might not have led many people to think they should eat only lettuce on induction

[RitaCeleste]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

Another thing I don't always do is figure out how much veggies I am getting when I use them to flavor other things. I like to add bellpeppers and onions and mushrooms and celery to stuff and cook with them. I've only been guessing on how much usually because I sometimes make huge dishes to feed four with left overs. But I see Cucumber on the salad veggie list. This one I can eat with a little salt all by itself instead of a salad with dressing and toppings and see what happens! Also when using fitday I pick the tuna salad with onions and stuff and kinda get idea of what its carbs are. I am so tired of lettuce sometimes. Cucumber I'm not tired of, and the kids will eat it too!

[pinkfusion]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

This might just be me, but if I get my carbs from something other than veggies it usually screws me up (ie: stokes some cravings or something) and I even have to be careful which veggies that I eat (like, I think that green beans are actually a problem veg for me)

If I dont eat enough carbs I start to feel tired and I think that is because my blood sugar gets wonky and I start to crave.

[mitzimarie]

Re: Something has been bothering me...

This might just be me, but if I get my carbs from something other than veggies it usually screws me up (ie: stokes some cravings or something)

Pink, after carefully progressing through all of the rungs, I find that the same thing is true for me. I can have berries on special occasions, but other than that, the overwhelming majority of my net carbs must come from veggies. This was a hard pill for me to swallow at first, as I wouldn't touch a veggie with a 10 foot pole prior to Atkins. When I accepted what an important role veggies play for me and stopped fighting them, things fell into place.

Exciting stuff veggies. And I am looking forward to the veggie challenge. I am so joining this year.

The next Veggie Challenge will be in November, and I am SUPER excited to see that you will be joining us, Liv! I haven't picked the exact dates yet, but will post an announcement when it gets closer to challenge time. It's a great challenge.