Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

[Georgiana]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

I copied some of the posts from this thread

http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.com/forums/main-atkins-diet-forum/81626-its-not-working-4.html

here. It is less confusing for the OP of that thread.

[Georgiana]

Re: It's not working

I think we're in agreement that Rule #3 does indeed say "most" of the 20 net carbs on Induction should come from Induction vegetables and that "most" of 20 is a number greater than 11.

No one is contesting that "most" of 20 is 11 g or more. But rule #3 does not say "eat 20 grams a day of carbohydrate".

[atkinsgal08]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

We simply disagree on the phrase "eat no more than".

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

it was stated that the 12-15 net carbs from Atkins.com was taken from this website ... and it seems from the chronology that that wasn't true. That was my only interest and point. That's why I asked when the first Vegetable Challenge was.

I sincerely apologize to the people at Atkins.com for implying they stole a range of numbers (that don't follow the Rules in the book).

Anyhow regarding Rule #3. There are actually 3 parts to it.

Rule 3A: Eat no more than 20 grams of a day of carbohydrates

Rule 3B: Most of which (the aforementioned carbs) must come in the form of vegetables.

Rule 3C: You can eat 3 cups of those aforementioned veggies either 3 cups salad or 2 cups salad and 1 cup other.

So if you have a menu with a total of 20 net carbs and your vegetable of choice is 3 cups of lettuce, then it doesn't satisfy the criteria of Rule 3, specifically Rule 3B.

Likewise, if you have a menu with a total of 12 net carbs and your vegetable choice is 1 cup each of pumpkin, jicama and mushrooms, then that menu follows Rule 3 completely: it contains no more (ie does not exceed) than 20 carbs, most of the carbs comes from veggies, and it is divided as 2 cups salad and 1 cup other veggie.

We simply disagree on the phrase "eat no more than".

We can all agree it means you do not exceed 20. But "eat no more than" doesn't mean you have to eat exactly 20.

If "eat no more than 20" does, indeed, mean "eat exactly 20", then the part of Rule 1 that states "Do not skip meals or go more than 6 hours without eating" means everything you eat must be spaced 6 hours apart, effectively eliminating eating between-meal snacks or even eating a meal a 1 PM and another meal at 5 PM, because you have to space your meals exactly 6 hours apart.

[Georgiana]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

Edited to add: If someone is surprised by this post I made below... well... I just changed my mind about the "20 net carbs" issue.

----

'up to 3 cups'

This is from Chapter 18. Chapter 18 is Lazyman's Chapter. For Lazyman, "up to 3 cups" is good enough, because Lazyman will probably be too lazy to properly follow the diet. I wouldn't expect Lazyman to carefully count his carbs anyway.

As induction is only meant to be for 2 weeks except for those with a lot of weight to lose or who have damaged metabolism, I don't think eating only 9-10 net carbs a day for 14 days would be a problem for most people.

I don't know if it would be a problem for most people. Personally, I wouldn't make this claim since no where in DANDR are we told this. However, we are told that

a person following the typical menu and eating foods containing just 20 grams of carbohydrate meets and exceeds the daily recommended allowance of most vitamins and minerals.

So a 20 g menu is healthy, according to Dr. Atkins.

If eating 3 cups of lettuce is intimidating, then eating 12-15 net carbs of lettuce (about 12-15 cups) would be downright inconceivable for some folks---especially the self-proclaimed veggie haters. I mean, we have people on OWL phase who can't stomach eating 3 cups of Induction veggies and an additional 5 net carbs of them. I think if they were eating 12-15 net carbs of lettuce on Induction and then had to add another 5 net carbs (another 5 cups of lettuce), they would have quit!

I doubt anyone would be crazy enough to eat 20 cups of lettuce. Especially one who is a veggie hater. If one is crazy enough to do this, then it's one's fault, not the diet's.

It is also easier to eat 3 cups of lettuce than 20. Having to eat more than 11 net carbs from vegetables would probably make one try different veggies rather than eat lettuce alone, which, in the end, would be better for one's health.

However, I don't think I would have had a problem stuffing 15 cups of food into my extended size stomach when I started Atkins.

I don't know about "15 cups of food"... But I doubt Megs would have eaten 15 cups of lettuce instead of, let's say, 5 cups of various veggies.

But then, my weight was due to eating huge portions of "healthy foods".

Would, for example, 5 cups of veggies per day classify as "huge portions"? The carb limit and common sense (not eating a mountain of lettuce) would automatically set a limit on the volume of food one eats. Plus, even in the assumption that one is crazy enough to eat 15 cups of lettuce, it is still better than eating 15 cups of whatever foods one was eating pre-Atkins. It does not tell one that he/she can eat 15 cups of brown rice; it only tells one that he/she can eat 15 cups of lettuce... if one is on a mission to become a rabbit.

Dr. Atkins writes that he picked the magic 20 limit because that is the carb level where the vast majority of us get into ketosis. But ketosis can be seen at carb levels of less than 100.

Not only that; he also says that most people will lose weight eating 20 net carbs.

Even the majority of people who do not lose weight on a 1000-calorie low-fat diet will lose weight on a 1800- to 2000-calorie meal plan---if carbohydrates are limited to 20 grams per day.

Dr. Atkins never said we should eat as few net carbs as possible. He mentiones in several places in DANDR that Induction is 20 net carbs. Most people will lose weight eating 20 net carbs and 20 net carbs provide the RDA of most vitamins and minerals.

For example (plus the quotes above),

Atkins, on the other hand, starts off at 20 grams of carbohydrate.

Atkins initiates ketosis by restricting carbohydrate intake to 20 grams per day [...]

During Induction you were consuming about 20 grams of carbs per day.

During the first week of OWL, increase your daily carb intake from the 20 grams a day on Induction to 25 grams a day---going up one level.

During Induction (20 grams of carbohydrate), you may have been losing 5 pounds a week.

For that group, I suggest something more than the Induction's 20-grams-of-carbohydrate-a-day meal plan.

Dr. Atkins never says "During Induction (less than 20 grams of carbohydrate)" or "Induction's less-than-20-grams-of-carbohydrate-a-day meal plan" or "Induction starts off at less than 20 grams of carbohydrate". There is not one place in DANDR where this appears. And if Induction is 20 grams of carbohydrate, and most of these must come from vegetables, then more than 11 net carbs should come from vegetables.

This is a post Brook made in 2005:

I respectfully disagree. The "cups" rule was a general guideline given by Dr. Atkins because the vast majority of people didn't have a food scale and/or were severly under estimating the amounts they were eating, so the "cups" rule kept them in check. - No, I'm not pulling that out of my hat - that came from the Atkins Center back in the day when Dr. Atkins was still around running things. I know cuz I called them and asked. If they had told me that in the last year and a half, I'd have been loathe to trust them, but they were pretty right-on with Dr. Atkins back then and I trusted them.

So according to the Atkins Center, the 3 cups "rule" was, as Brook puts it, "a general guideline". Plus, it is very difficult to eat 20 net carbs if you only eat a cup of, let's say, spinach and 2 cups of salad veggies.

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

I doubt anyone would be crazy enough to eat 20 cups of lettuce. Especially one who is a veggie hater. If one is crazy enough to do this, then it's one's fault, not the diet's.

It is also easier to eat 3 cups of lettuce than 20. Having to eat more than 11 net carbs from vegetables would probably make one try different veggies rather than eat lettuce alone, which, in the end, would be better for one's health.

If you say "eat 12-15 net carbs of veggies", people who are very strict will eat 12-15 net carbs of veggies---even if it means eating 12-15 cups of lettuce everyday. Afterall we have folks counting their carbs down to decimal points.

And don't be quick to assume how much my pre-Atkins stomach was able to hold. A "bag of salad" greens in the US is about 9 ounces and holds 2 servings of 2.5 cups salad greens. The entire bag contains about 2-3 net carbs. I used to eat one of those bags for my lunch salad pre-Atkins low fat vegetarian/vegan days PLUS a cup of pinto beans PLUS an apple or two PLUS a couple thick slices of bread or a couple cups of pasta. My stomach was big and stretchy back then and could accomodate a whole lot of food (it was in perfect proportion to my big rear-end and huge thighs.)

[Georgiana]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

If you say "eat 12-15 net carbs of veggies", people who are very strict will eat 12-15 net carbs of veggies---even if it means eating 12-15 cups of lettuce everyday. Afterall we have folks counting their carbs down to decimal points.

There are three cases here, I believe. People who like veggies in general, people who only like lettuce, and people who don't like veggies at all.

Someone who likes veggies, will probably not eat 15 cups of lettuce, since he/she like more than lettuce. It would be boring for him/her to eat lettuce alone.

Someone who only likes lettuce, will need to eat 15 cups of lettuce, since that's the only veggie he/she likes, or will need to learn to like other veggies. At this point, this person has two options: 1. eat 15 cups of lettuce; 2. try other veggies. If one chooses 1., then this person is crazy enough that he/she would have eaten 3 cups of lettuce only following the 3 cups "rule"; which is bad, because 3 cups of lettuce alone provide one with little nutrition; while eating 15 cups sounds nuts, imo, it would still be better than eating only 3. If one chooses 2., then good for him/her! He/She will probably discover new veggies he/she likes (many people, as you say, don't like veggies because of the way they were prepared when they first tried them or whatever... not because they really don't like them), which means more nutrition, which means better health.

And someone who doesn't like veggies at all... Well, he/she has two options as well: 1. try some veggies; 2. try another diet. If 2.... goodbye... we don't care about them. But if one chooses 1., then this person won't eat 15 cups of lettuce unless he/she is a masochist; he/she will try to eat a volume of veggies as small as possible and be done with it. He either discovers he likes veggies (he can still eat 3 cups on Induction, if that's what he prefers) and makes Atkins his WoE (better health again!)... or he decides veggies are a pain... and moves to the next diet.

So, with the exception of a few people crazy enough to eat 15 cups of lettuce and no other vegetables, the others will either eat various veggies... or don't follow Atkins at all. Those who decide not to follow Atkins would not have stuck to it long term anyway.

And don't be quick to assume how much my pre-Atkins stomach was able to hold.

Oh, that's not what I was assuming... You just seem to be a very good cook and to like different veggies (from your posts), which is why I was doubting you would have eaten 15 cups of lettuce instead of eating various veggies.

A "bag of salad" greens in the US is about 9 ounces and holds 2 servings of 2.5 cups salad greens. The entire bag contains about 2-3 net carbs. I used to eat one of those bags for my lunch salad pre-Atkins low fat vegetarian/vegan days PLUS a cup of pinto beans PLUS an apple or two PLUS a couple thick slices of bread or a couple cups of pasta.

But then you weren't watching carbs. So from your pre-Atkins diet, you could have kept the 5 cups of salad greens (at 2-3 net carbs) for your lunch. The other items should have been replaced by something else: meat, cheese, eggs, etc. or higher carb veggies. And after all, you need 4-7 bags like those to make 12-15 net carbs. And after the first few days, you would have had the appetite suppressant effect of ketosis, and I doubt 20-35 cups of salad greens would have been doable once you were in ketosis.

You said you ate higher carb veggies during your Induction. Why did you choose higher carb ones? You clearly didn't need the carbs in order to accommodate things like eggs, cream, sweeteners... So you could have eaten 3 cups of salad greens. But you chose not to.

[Georgiana]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

PS: What you are saying does not address whether the book says "eat 20 net carbs" or "eat as few below 20 as you wish". What we are discussing in your post and in my reply is who will do more bad choices on Atkins: someone who eats 12-15 net carbs (and can choose only lettuce) or someone who eats 3 cups of veggies (who can just as well choose 3 cups of lettuce). I believe one who hasn't read the book (and re-read it a few times after that) is just as likely to make bad choices whatever "rule" one is following. But we both know that Atkins is more than just literally interpretting a set of rules. The Rules make more sense in the context of the whole book, and everywhere in the book Dr. Atkins says Induction starts at 20 net carbs, not "less than 20 net carbs".

[not2late]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

There are three cases here, I believe. People who like veggies in general, people who only like lettuce, and people who don't like veggies at all.

Someone who likes veggies, will probably not eat 15 cups of lettuce, since he/she like more than lettuce. It would be boring for him/her to eat lettuce alone.

Someone who only likes lettuce, will need to eat 15 cups of lettuce, since that's the only veggie he/she likes, or will need to learn to like other veggies. At this point, this person has two options: 1. eat 15 cups of lettuce; 2. try other veggies. If one chooses 1., then this person is crazy enough that he/she would have eaten 3 cups of lettuce only following the 3 cups "rule"; which is bad, because 3 cups of lettuce alone provide one with little nutrition; while eating 15 cups sounds nuts, imo, it would still be better than eating only 3. If one chooses 2., then good for him/her! He/She will probably discover new veggies he/she likes (many people, as you say, don't like veggies because of the way they were prepared when they first tried them or whatever... not because they really don't like them), which means more nutrition, which means better health.

And someone who doesn't like veggies at all... Well, he/she has two options as well: 1. try some veggies; 2. try another diet. If 2.... goodbye... we don't care about them. But if one chooses 1., then this person won't eat 15 cups of lettuce unless he/she is a masochist; he/she will try to eat a volume of veggies as small as possible and be done with it. He either discovers he likes veggies (he can still eat 3 cups on Induction, if that's what he prefers) and makes Atkins his WoE (better health again!)... or he decides veggies are a pain... and moves to the next diet.

I agree with that.

So, with the exception of a few people crazy enough to eat 15 cups of lettuce and no other vegetables, the others will either eat various veggies... or don't follow Atkins at all. Those who decide not to follow Atkins would not have stuck to it long term anyway.

Or there will be those who will say "I can't eat all that lettuce! I'll do Slim Fast instead!"

Oh, that's not what I was assuming... You just seem to be a very good cook and to like different veggies (from your posts), which is why I was doubting you would have eaten 15 cups of lettuce instead of eating various veggies.

Nope. I wouldn't have eaten 15 cups of lettuce, because I saw there was more than lettuce on the "salad" list. I've noticed during my time on ADBB that whenever people hear the word "salad", they automatically think lettuce (and maybe spinach). But if I was one of these "salad= lettuce" people and I heard you had to eat 12-15 net carbs of lettuce, I wouldn't have bothered to go on Atkins.

But then you weren't watching carbs. So from your pre-Atkins diet, you could have kept the 5 cups of salad greens (at 2-3 net carbs) for your lunch. The other items should have been replaced by something else: meat, cheese, eggs, etc. or higher carb veggies. And after all, you need 4-7 bags like those to make 12-15 net carbs. And after the first few days, you would have had the appetite suppressant effect of ketosis, and I doubt 20-35 cups of salad greens would have been doable once you were in ketosis.

the problem was my pre-Atkins stomach size was the stomach size I had when I started Atkins Induction Day 1. I felt hungry for the first few days, until ketosis kicked in. The only thing that helped with that "hunger" was drinking alot of water.

You said you ate higher carb veggies during your Induction. Why did you choose higher carb ones? You clearly didn't need the carbs in order to accommodate things like eggs, cream, sweeteners... So you could have eaten 3 cups of salad greens. But you chose not to.

I ate the higher carbed veggies for 2 reasons 1. nutrition and 2 because I had to get most of my daily carbs from veggies. Lettuce is a nutritional waste, imo. Eating the other salad veggies like peppers, fennel, cucumbers, etc. were more nutritionally sound. One of the things Dr. Atkins wrote was that we had to make the most nutritional food choices. Plus eating those higher carb veggies meant that the most of my carbs were coming from veggies rather than eggs, mayo, cheese, etc. etc. etc.

PS: What you are saying does not address whether the book says "eat 20 net carbs" or "eat as few below 20 as you wish". What we are discussing in your post and in my reply is who will do more bad choices on Atkins: someone who eats 12-15 net carbs (and can choose only lettuce) or someone who eats 3 cups of veggies (who can just as well choose 3 cups of lettuce). I believe one who hasn't read the book (and re-read it a few times after that) is just as likely to make bad choices whatever "rule" one is following. But we both know that Atkins is more than just literally interpretting a set of rules. The Rules make more sense in the context of the whole book, and everywhere in the book Dr. Atkins says Induction starts at 20 net carbs, not "less than 20 net carbs".

Well, if we have to eat exactly 20 net carbs daily, then what if I'm not hungry after eating 15? Does that mean I have to force myself to ingest an additional 5 net carbs? The Rules say to eat until you are satisfied. So if I force myself to eat another 5 net carbs to make it to the magic 20 mark, then I am no longer following the rules.

Of course, I could always do what atkins.com recommends and include a couple of Atkins brand carb controlled shakes or bars. Or, when I was on Induction, I could have had some of those Atkins brand "induction appropriate" muffins, breads, desserts. But what if I am completely satisfied at 15 net carbs? If I eat just to eat, then I'm in violation of the "don't stuff yourself rule".

[chadcs]

Re: Twenty carbs or Three cups - a discussion of new vs old "Atkins"

I do find it funny that we are quibbling over something that none of us can know for sure seeing as Atkins is deceased. 20 carbs vs 15 carbs vs 10 carb. All follow the book so to interject an opinion, even one backed up with science, to suggest that not more than means you must eat 20 seems to violate the TOS as it no longer goes by DANDR 2002. Just my 2 cents.

I always took the salad greens as something that was put in there for people who did not eat enough vegetables. It is a very common type that most people either like or can tolerate. It gives you a starting place that you can build from.