Bittermelon

[Naja]

With all due respect, please forgive me for putting more faith in what Dr.A wrote than in your interpretation therein. ... I am following Dr. Atkins plan rather than Naja's interpretation.

That's probably the safest thing to do, because you really don't have any way to verify how good my interpretations are. I have a reasonably solid science and biology background and I am quite certain that my definition of "cabbage" is an absolutely valid one in terms of taxonomy and nutrition. But you can't independently verify that - lots of people spout nonsense on the Net whether they know what they are talking about or not. So yes, Dr. Atkins is a more trustworthy authority than some random person on the Net writing under a funny nickname.

I encourage you to make your own decisions, do your own research and speak directly to a trained doctor at the Atkins Nutritional Center if you have any questions. It is never a good idea to automatically believe anything you read on the Net.

Doing Atkins by the book is the safest course because you really can't go wrong that way. However I wish that someone with Atkins credentials would get a clue and publish a list of Induction acceptable vegetable variants that come from cultures other than American. I think that the ethnocentrism of the list does a major disservice to people outside of America, since a lot of people might not realize that a cabbage is a cabbage whether you call it red, green Savoy, Napa or pei tsai.

[Wyatt]

That post above is why I respect your opinion so much Naja, and tend to take your opinions and experiences as guidelines to my own future success.

Keep up the good work of helping others, it is certainly appreciated. ha

[shawnee]

Naja.... :bang

I applaud your efforts at trying to teach people to think for themselves

I agree w/you 100% but if some people cannot do that well I guess we let them be.

Wyatt my problem with your post is you are 'dissing' the OP (orginal poster) & telling them they 'have a problem' for doing something that is aboslutely fine. Bittermelon is not only 100% induction friendly it used to control insulin resistance & blood glucose levels by doctors in Asia. It is better than induction friendly it is GREAT for this WOL. If you don't really undersstand something then just don't comment instead of rushing to judgement & castigating someone w/o knowing all the salient facts.

Have you ever even seen a bittermelon, eaten one, done any research on its nutritional properties?

I am 100% sure that if Atkins were alive & examined Bittermelon & read the scientific studies on Bittermelon not only would he put it on the list, he would encourage it's consumption. Why don't you try to understand why & how the WOL works instead of blindly following a list which is definitely ethnocentric & incomplete.

But hey if Dr At didn't get around to putting it on the list because he didn't cover all the worlds cuisines & foods in his book, then I guess it must be bad huh?

I'm trying to bite my tongue here so I better shut up now

[pammie]

I am sorry but you cannot call something 100% induction friendly just because you THINK it should be on the list!

yes, I agree with you, bittermelon is low carb, it is high fiber, it is used in diabetes treatment and in all likely hood should be on the list...and in all likely hood Dr. Atkins would probably approve it if he could. I totally agree.

But, here on this board we teach to do 2 weeks clean, by the list. And if we start (especially mods) saying well this is 100% induction friendly because I think so....than we are opening up a whole can of worms that is going to get us in trouble. With this kind of logic, people can come back and say hey if I can have bittermelon..why can't I have watermelon (same biological family and relatively same carb content) or hey strawberries are low in carbs why can't I have them. Or what if I only have a little potato, enough so I stay under my 20 grams....a cup of carrots is only 9 carbs, why can't I have them???
This is where a statement like "bittermelon is 100% induction legal" leads to trouble when you know it is not on the induction list!

2 weeks....that is all we are talking about. 2 short weeks.

[texannie]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oi=defmore&q=define:bitter+melon+(momord ica+charantia)

[Naja]

I am sorry but you cannot call something 100% induction friendly just because you THINK it should be on the list!

I think the point is that it *is* on the list. It's a cucumber in every way that matters.

And if we start (especially mods) saying well this is 100% induction friendly because I think so....than we are opening up a whole can of worms that is going to get us in trouble. With this kind of logic, people can come back and say hey if I can have bittermelon..why can't I have watermelon (same biological family and relatively same carb content) or hey strawberries are low in carbs why can't I have them. Or what if I only have a little potato, enough so I stay under my 20 grams....a cup of carrots is only 9 carbs, why can't I have them???
This is where a statement like "bittermelon is 100% induction legal" leads to trouble when you know it is not on the induction list!

That's an excellent argument to do it by the book, because if you are not able to confirm scientifically that a pei tsai is a cabbage both in terms of taxonomic relationship and nutritive value ranges, you'd better not be eating it.

Some people might mistakenly extrapolate and say, "Well if a bitter melon is okay, a watermelon is okay too, it's a melon." And that would be disastrous since a watermelon is NOT a cucumber. It isn't very closely related despite the similarity of common name. Watermelon is Citrullus lanatus and a total disaster on Induction. Bitter melon is Momordica charantia, taxonomically a close relative to the cucumber. Both are Cucurbitaceae, but the Cucurbitaceae family is divided very distinctly into the cucumbers, gourds and true melons. Momordica is more closely related to Cucumis, and shares their nutritional properties.

So I think there is good scientific justification for calling the darn thing a cucumber, but it would probably be better to ask for verification from a doctor at the Atkins Nutritional Center. Technically it's in the gourd family, which also places it as a relative of summer squashes like zucchini. It is awfully nutritious, incredibly low in carbs, and helps regulate your blood sugar. If I could get my hands on the stuff I'd definitely be eating it. It is an acquired taste however!

[pammie]

Watermelon is Citrullus lanatus and a total disaster on Induction. Bitter melon is Momordica charantia!

here is wher eyou are wrong naja...bittermelon is Citrullus lanatus, melon...same as watermelon. it is not a cuccumber!

http://www.ethylenecontrol.com/Sydney/Sydney%20Post%20Harvest-Bittermelon.htm

[shawnee]

Pammie point taken.

My problem is Bittermelon is not only nutrionally sound, its medicinal value in regulating insulin resistance (a huge problem for most people on this WOL & probably one reason they need to be on Atkins) is well documented & certainly wouldn't want to disssuade people from eating it.

That said, guys it's errr well it's bitter. An aquired taste, took me a while to get used to, but I do eat it often because I'm was an active & now latent Diabetiic & I use it to help stay a 'former' diabetic. We grow it here too right in our backyard, its a vine, can eat the leaves too!

Flash: Just received a PM from another mod is lurking here & who called Atkins centre & they told them its OK for induction! I wish they (Atkins Centre) would publish an more complete & updated list somewhere!

[pammie]

ok, naja...after checking out more websites I see some people list it as Momordica and some others as Citrullus lanatus. I guess no one agrees?? hahhaa.....

anyway..like I said..foor me, it is not on the list, I can wait 2 weeks :icondance

[2big4mysize]

if you have any questions about if a food is allowed call the Atkins center 800 number and they will check it out for you in there reference books

MAYO isn't on the list of induction foods either BTW but nobody would tell an inductee not to have mayo

[Wyatt]

Skank.

I "dissed" noone. I said that the problem is possibly deeper than whether she wanted this fruit. That is all.

As for castigating someone w/o knowing all the salient facts - I know the facts according to the book. They say what is acceptable for 14 days and what isn't. Doesn't get more salient than that.

That you have a "problem" with my post and then tell me to just not comment in a public forum is disconcerting at best. Just because you are a moderator does not authorize you to tell me when I should post or keep quiet. My post on this topic was relevant and written with the best intentions. Your opinion on whether a food is induction appropriate or not does not override my ability to read and form my own opinion.

Naja, again I commend you for the way you handle questions and people's varying opinions. As you can see, not everyone is capable of staying at your level of informative and helpful posts.

As stated before I was singled out, I applaud the OA's commitment and the fact she made her 2 week induction clean and by the book!

[SummerLove]

Mayo IS on the list. What real mayo (I, personally, highly dislike mayo, or anything with mayo, but if I do need it for, say, tuna salad, I make my own) is made of is oil and eggs. That's it. Raw eggs and oil blended together.

Eggs is on the list. So is canola and olive oil, which are usually the two main oils used in mayo.

Well, I'm gonna call my choys cabbage and my bittermelon cucumber. I've already done the two weeks clean as possible (acceptable cheese, fresh meats/eggs/etc., "induction list veggies" [mainly lettuce and occasionally broccoli], and water- that's all) , but I'm no longer limiting myself to induction vegetables. I won't be able to survive living on those North American veggies. I really don't care for them.

I'm certainly not going to suffer from bitter melon [now some may suffer from the taste... it really is bitter and not for everyone] and all my choys, so I'll continue eating them. I may be American, but I don't have to eat like one!

Anyway, I already kicked all my cravings and carb addictions the first week. The only trouble now is dear grandmother who puts sugar and other awful white carbs in everything... but that's another story.

Thanks Naja and Skank!

[Naja]

Bitter melon is a Mormordica. I found a paper that acknowledges the reference to one botanist pair classing it under Citrullus, but apparently there is only the one published reference that says it belongs in that family. Everyone else says it's Mormordica.

Watermelons and cucumbers are distantly related, but they don't cross pollinate or hybridize.

[Bren]

and as always, we agree to disagree and respect everyone's opinions! And....... I have personally never heard of the fruit/vegie in question, but this sure sparked my interest. How do you eat/prepare it?

[shawnee]

If you can't give something up for 2 whole weeks of induction, your problem is far deeper than whether that is an acceptable food or not.

This quote was where I had the problem. In the end the Atkins centre has verified that bittermelon is induction allowed.

I didn't tell you not to commemt, but not to rush to judgement w/o checking the facts. Just because something isn't on page XYZ of your edition of DANDR doesn't mean its not allowed