Another veggie intake question

[JaxMama]

Re: Another veggie intake question

Oh another thing, my calories have gone down since starting OWL because of the addition of veggies. I am looking for more calories some days that aren't cheese. Although I felt I did better (lost more weight) with more cheese, except with constipation LOL

Maybe I will put some zuchini in my omelet tomorrow but, that will only make my net carbs go up.

[JaxMama]

Re: Another veggie intake question

Ya, I know about the sausage I was wondering if I should eat it or not and then decided, I wasn't going to waste the $4 I spent on it. But I won't buy it again for a while. But even if I took that out, there goes a bunch of fat and calories. I'll be hungry without the extra protein. Butter and olive oil don't fill me up. Unfortently my appetite did not totally subside during induction. Although it's about 20% what it once was.

Do you see what I am getting at? Not arguing with anyone, just having an extremely hard time balancing the percentages and getting my veggies. I am def not moving onto RUNG 2 until I can get this down and I am on day 9 of RUNG 1.

Thanks everyone.

[Georgiana]

Re: Another veggie intake question

You should enter your vegetables raw in FitDay, especially when you measured them raw. It's better to measure raw whenever possible... more accurate. Cabbage will reduce its volume when cooked, so 1 cup of cooked cabbage is more than 1 cup of raw cabbage. Plus, you don't know what ingredients FitDay assumes you add in cooking.

Same for the other vegetables.

What are the ingredients in the sausage? Does it really have 4.4 net carbs?

You could also give up some sweeteners to reduce your carbs from other sources.

Are you in the first week of OWL? If not, you can increase your carbs to more than 25.

How did you cook those eggs you had for breakfast?

[Georgiana]

Re: Another veggie intake question

But even if I took that out, there goes a bunch of fat and calories. I'll be hungry without the extra protein.

You'll be adding some other food in it's place. I'm certainly not suggesting you go hungry. Add some ground beef, for example. Or chicken with some sauce to increase your ratio of fat to protein.

Butter and olive oil don't fill me up.

Alone, they are quite gross, too. Though... we did have a member who was taking oil shots. In any case, you'll be adding these fats to other food... to your protein and carbs. The extra fat will help in keeping hunger away between meals.

Unfortently my appetite did not totally subside during induction. Although it's about 20% what it once was.

I think your calories are quite low already.

[Georgiana]

Re: Another veggie intake question

Your protein intake for yesterday looks fine, but your carbs do not. As today, not enough net carbs from vegetables and too many from other sources.

Sweeteners are limited to 3 per day, but I guess you already know that.

Why use egg whites instead of whole eggs? Yolks are more nutritious and have more fat.

[Georgiana]

Re: Another veggie intake question

What are the ingredients in the Italian dressing? That one is quite high in carbs, too.

[atkinsgal08]

Re: Another veggie intake question

>>i use egglands best and went by the carton>>

You're over counting. A large egg, according to the USDA is 0.39 net carbs.

>>i assumed it was florida since i live in florida,>>

If the skin is smooth, then it's a "Florida". They're less common than the Hass's.

>> Did you measure your cabbage after it was cooked? ******* No, i took precook measurement>>

Then you need to enter the cabbage in the raw state. That's true of any food you measure before you cook it.

>> What's "All Whites"? *******in the egg aisle at grocery store in a carton,>>

What are the ingredients? Any chemical preservatives? Really ... eat the whole egg!

>> Did you measure the spinach after it was cooked?*****seriously measure 6 leaves?, it's almost too insignificant to list******>>

So ... it was 6 leaves before it was cooked? Then enter it as 6 leaves, raw.

You may think it's insignificant, but if you really want to troubleshoot, then nothing should be left out.

>>but you (ATKINSGAL) said my protein is too high &not to eat more than 4 oz of cheese (previos post). >>

No need to shout. It's Dr. Atkins who says not to eat more than 4 ounces of cheese.

Your protein % is too high. However, at the beginning, one doesn't really need to fret so much over the amount of protein. Again, if we're looking at everything, and if you want to troubleshoot, then maybe it's an issue for you, even at this point in your journey.

>>then I need more calories? B>>

Yes. Undereating is never productive with Atkins.

You can add more calories with more fat.

>> I don't have a solution for myself so anyone, HELP**>>

We are helping you.

>>just having an extremely hard time balancing the percentages and getting my veggies.>>

Don't worry so much about the %s. Work on getting MOST (about 17-20) of your net carbs (25 total) from Induction vegetables.

Eat enough protein and enough fat.

If you're hungry, eat.

How much WATER are you drinking?

How are you doing with reading the book?

[JaxMama]

Re: Another veggie intake question

My weight is no change again, but still TOM. I was 141.60 this morning. I wish this TOM would hurry........

1. I cook all my eggs with PAM, not fat. I am thinking about putting a small pad of butter in them this morning

2. We cook with EVOO all the time so I will probably put 1 tbls oil in with my cabbage. But I don't know exactly how much I am eating some is still left in the pan.

3. I enjoy the taste of eggwhites so that is why I add them in additionally or eat them later with veggies and cheese omelet.

4. sweetner, I know the rule I just have all 3 in my morning cup of coffee. Coffee actually supresses my appetite in the mornings. Yes sometimes I have more if I want a "sweet" breakfast. I've been doing it since the start so I am not sure if that is my problem. But I could play around with it.

5. I do consider 3 eggs enough in a day. I eat them everyday and I am afraid one day I will wake up and hate them.

6. I measured my cabbage veggies raw. As for the frozen broccoli I measured frozen.

7. This is day 12 of RUNG 1. I started on the 10th of Feb.

Thanks Georgiana

[JaxMama]

Re: Another veggie intake question

Atkinsgal;

wasn't shouting, just wanted to see your name

I saw you listed net carbs from veggies 17-20 and I didn't see it in the book. Not arguing at all but I have read some of the same chapters 3X and it does not say that should be the net carbs so I figured I just added more veggies, but one serving of various veggies in OWL. If I missed it, and you (or anyone) has the page handy please let me know. I spent an hour and a half reading thru it last night trying to figure out the best way to add more veggies. But I can see my sweetner issue being a potential problem.


Water- yesterday was close to 120 oz. Most days is between 3-4 Liters which is about 99 to 132 oz.

I think today I might eat and then add it to the fitday and see what it says. But I plan on eating steak and eggs for breakfast.


Two last questions. Why do you all think 1300 calories are too low? I figured anything 1000 or below would be too low. How many calories do you eat during the day (so I can compare).

Thanks,

Jaxmam

[JaxMama]

Re: Another veggie intake question

Ok, sorry another question.

Atkins does say in the book that at some point too much protein gets converted to glucose but it does not say at what point? 100 grams, 200 grams? 75 grams? I guess it depends who you are?

Thanks Jaxmama

[atkinsgal08]

Re: Another veggie intake question

>>I have read some of the same chapters 3X and it does not say that should be the net carbs>>

Just to clarify that you have the 2002 edition of the book. Assuming that's true, net carbs are in Chapter 8 ... the carbs that count "Check the total fiber grams listed on the food label and subtract that number from the total grams of carbohydrate listed."

Thereafter, Dr. Atkins normally just uses the word "carbohydrate", so one must know that he means "net" carbs.

>>I can see my sweetner issue being a potential problem.>>

>>Why do you all think 1300 calories are too low?>>

Because it's not 10 times your current body weight. Eating under 1500 calories isn't really a norm with Atkins.

You should be able to eat 250 calories above your BMR, which you can figure out here:

BMR Formula

It's possible that the BMR and the 10 times rule of thumb are close ... they were for me.

>>How many calories do you eat during the day (so I can compare).
>>

Doesn't matter what I eat ... this is about YOUR body.

>>I cook all my eggs with PAM, not fat. I>>

Ick. PAM is icky ... and it can ruin your pans.

>>I measured my cabbage veggies raw.>>

Then that's how you should enter it in to Fitday.

>> I saw you listed net carbs from veggies 17-20 and I didn't see it in the book.>>

Here's my thinking. Induction is 20 net carbs. MOST of your net carbs should be from vegetables (part 2 of Rule #3). That's a number like 12-15 net carbs. So when you add 5 net carbs on OWL 1, the number of vegetable carbs becomes 17-20.

I've seen it work more than I've seen it fail.

>>one serving of various veggies in OWL. >>

As long as that one serving is 5 net carbs! If you add another serving of lettuce, that's not going to be 5 net carbs.

Also ... how tall are you?

And here's the "horror" .... is it possible your body wants to weigh 140?

[atkinsgal08]

Re: Another veggie intake question

>>Atkins does say in the book that at some point too much protein gets converted to glucose but it does not say at what point? 100 grams, 200 grams? 75 grams? I guess it depends who you are?>>

Yes, it would depend on the individual.

You shouldn't eat more protein than your body needs. You can guess at around .5 gram of protein per pound of your body weight. If you exercise more, the amount of protein goes up.

As I said before, generally when one is starting, one doesn't have to worry about protein too much.

However, your % is a bit high ... that may or may not be an issue.

The thing is ... you can't change too many things at once, or you'll never know what is causing the result.

I would work on the vegetables first.

[not2late]

Re: Another veggie intake question

PAM is fat----it's cooking oil that has propellants added so you can spray it. You might want to change to regular cooking oil because PAM is a "low fat" item in the meaning that it was meant to control the amount of fat one could use in sauteeing. (Personally, I've only used it to spray cake pans. And more recently, I've used it to keep the snow from sticking to my snow shovel.)

If you like the flavor of extra virgin olive oil, you might want to try using it as a "flavor enhancer" rather than a cooking oil. So after the veg (or meat) has been cooked, pour alittle extra virgin olive oil right over it and give it a toss. (yes....I know Rachel Ray and others love to cook with extra virgin, but I find that the heat destroys the flavor of the oil. Besides....that stuff is too expensive to fry an egg in it all the time! )

Eggs whites are okay to use. But since they are primarily protein, you will need to add extra fat in order to maintain the fat-to-protein-carb ratio a whole egg has. A whole egg has about 70-75% of its calories as fat. So if you use the whites, try to shoot for that whole egg fat %. Likewise, if you use whites in addition to the whole eggs, try to add enough fat to bring that fat % up.

RE: sweetener limits.....

The sweetener limit is 3 servings/packets per day. Prior to 1992, there was no limit. In DANDR '92, Dr. Atkins explained that he set that limit because he noticed some of his patients who followed the diet strictly did not lose weight. And he noticed that these patient were the ones who used 3 or more servings of aspartame daily. When he limited or eliminated the sweetener, they lost weight. Unfortunately, they did not mention this in DANDR 2002, which caused a bit of controversy because people did not know the reason for the limit and thought that Dr. Atkins was just full of hot air. So limit the sweeteners to 3 per day and see what happens. Also, you might want to read the Induction Forum FAQs because there is a link to a thread about the "Cephalic Phase Insulin Response". In summary, that response says even if you eat something that tastes sweet (like an artificial sweetner), your body will release insulin, which may be detrimental to you loss on Atkins because part of the weight loss depends on keeping that insulin level steady.

3 eggs daily is fine. In fact, 1 egg daily or no eggs daily is okay too. You should be eating the foods that you like to eat and the amount of food that satisfies your hunger. So if 1 egg satisfies your hunger: that's what you eat. If it takes 3 or 4 eggs to satisfy your hunger, that's what you eat.

When you plan your Atkins meals, start with the veggies, then add the rest of the foods. So, decide what veggies you will have for the day. For example, you have green beans, radishes, cucumbers, and tomatoes in the frig. Plan your menu like this:

Breakfast: 1 cup cucumbers

Lunch: 1 cup radishes

Dinner: 1 cup green beans and 5 net carbs tomatoes

Then add your proteins:

Breakfast: 1 cup cucumbers--sliced, 2 eggs--fried

Lunch: 1 cup radishes, 1 or 2 baked chicken legs

Dinner: 1 cup green beans, 1 or 2 baked chicken thighs .

Then add your fat:

Breakfast: 1 cup cucumbers--sliced, 2 eggs--fried,

Lunch: 1 cup radishes--sliced and mixed with dressing of mayonnaise and lemon juice, salt and pepper, 1 or 2 baked chicken legs

Dinner: 1 cup green beans---sliced lengthwise into "strands" and sauteed olive oil and 5 net carbs tomatoes---chopped and briefly sauteed with olive oil , 1 or 2 baked chicken thighs topped with melted mozzarrella cheese and parmesan cheese shavings.

Then add your extras

Breakfast: 1 cup cucumbers--sliced, 2 eggs--fried, 1/2 avocado sliced. cup of coffee plus 2 sweeteners and 1 tablespoon heavy cream

Lunch: 1 cup radishes--sliced and mixed with dressing of mayonnaise and sour cream, salt and pepper, 1 or 2 baked chicken legs,

Dinner: 1 cup green beans---sliced lengthwise into "strands" and sauteed with garlic and olive oil and 5 net carbs tomatoes---chopped and briefly sauteed with olive oil and topped with fresh basil, 1 or 2 baked chicken thighs topped with melted mozzarrella cheese and parmesan cheese shavings. marinated olives, a glass of seltzer water with lemon juice.

I know it sounds like a real pain in the you-know-what, but planning your menues this way will ensure that you'll always get the veggies, protein and fat into your menu.

When you climb higher on the carb ladder, you can still use this method! For example, if you are on Rung 4 and you have gone through Rungs 2 and 3 without problems the above menu can look like this with the Rung Foods.

Breakfast: 1 cup cucumbers--sliced, 2 eggs--fried, 1/2 avocado sliced. cup of coffee plus 2 sweeteners and 1 tablespoon heavy cream,

Lunch: 1 cup radishes--sliced and mixed with dressing of mayonnaise and sour cream, salt and pepper, 1 or 2 baked chicken legs, 5 net carbs yogurt with 5 net carbs strawberries.

Dinner: 1 cup green beans---sliced lengthwise into "strands" and sauteed with garlic and olive oil and 5 net carbs tomatoes---chopped and briefly sauteed with olive oil and topped with fresh basil, 1 or 2 baked chicken thighs in a 2.5 net carb pecan crust topped with melted mozzarrella cheese and parmesan cheese shavings. marinated olives, a glass of seltzer water with lemon juice.

It sounds counterintuitive to center your meals around your veggies when you are doing a low carb diet, like Atkins. But if you don't do it that way, you might not eat enough carbs or fat.

[Georgiana]

Re: Another veggie intake question

I cook all my eggs with PAM, not fat.

I don't eat anything PAM-like because besides oil, it has a things like soy lecithin, water (I don't "need" it), isobutane or whatever other propellants. I prefer to use real oil... where the only ingredient is oil.

That being said, I do love my oil spray. I have one that I fill with extra virgin olive oil and another that I fill with grapeseed oil. It's just a mechanical "toy", so all that I eat is olive or grapeseed oil, not "extra" ingredients.

I will probably put 1 tbls oil in with my cabbage. But I don't know exactly how much I am eating some is still left in the pan.

With a bit of practice, you should figure out how much oil you need to cook something.

For example, for 3 scrambled eggs I use 5 mL (1 tsp) of olive oil. To cook 300 grams of kohlrabi I use 10 mL of olive oil. To cook 150-170 grams of chicken liver I use 10 mL... some is left in the pan, with juices from the meat and pieces of liver... and I cook veggies in it.

I saw you listed net carbs from veggies 17-20 and I didn't see it in the book.

It's not in the book, but it really works well for many people. Vegetables are generally a "safer" source of carbs than sweeteners or cheese, for example.

For me, if I get roughly 75% or more of my net carbs from vegetables, I can eat more net carbs than if I were to eat only half of them from veggies. Similarly, at the same net carbohydrate level, the larger the percentage of net carbs I get from vegetables, the better I do. I am not saying it necessarily works this way for everybody, but like J., I've seen it work for many. You can check the last Veggie Challenge to see how some people suddenly began losing better when they ate more of their carbs from veggies. The thread is in the "Semi Annual Challenges" forum.

Why do you all think 1300 calories are too low?

Many nutritionists recommend eating at least your BMR. On Atkins, one can eat approximately 250 calories more than on a high carbohydrate diet and still lose weight. It's the so-called "metabolic advantage" of this way of eating.

I wouldn't eat to stuff myself if not hungry, but my calories are, on average, 250-300 calories above my BMR. I do best at this caloric level. I had quite a long period on Atkins during which I underate and my weight loss stalled. When I added more calories, I began losing again. And while I was undereating, I couldn't say I was hungry... ketosis worked great... but if you were to look at my vitamins and minerals in FitDay, many were pretty low compared to the RDAs. For me, the way to get better nutrition was to add more calories (more food = more nutrients)... and I found out it worked great. It doesn't necessarily mean that I am eating a larger volume of food... I am just making each bite more nutritious. That requires some planning.

A whole egg has about 70-75% of its calories as fat.

After hearing this so often from ziggy, I think it's 62-63% for a whole, raw chicken egg.

I think today I might eat and then add it to the fitday and see what it says.

I do the other way around. I plan my menus a few days in advance, so that I have an idea where I am with my carbs, fat, protein, etc., rather then realize at the end of the day that I've overeaten protein or, worse, net carbs. In my experience, undereating net carbs does not help either.

Atkins does say in the book that at some point too much protein gets converted to glucose

Actually, that happens not only with "too much protein". Part of the protein can be converted to glucose in a process known as gluconeogenesis. This is a good thing for low carbers, because it provides glucose for body parts that do not use ketones/FFA for fuel. The problem with overeating protein is that too much glucose will interfere with fat burning. Consequently, this may interfere with weight loss.

I guess it depends who you are?

There's no upper limit set on the grams of protein, as far as I am aware. However, to avoid loss of lean body mass on a very low carbohydrate diet, research shows that one needs a minimum of 1-1.5 grams of protein per kg of body weight. In pounds, that would be approximately 0.5-0.7 grams per pound of body weight.

In percentages, my protein intake is about 22-25% of my calories. Occasionally it can be as low as 18% and I also have days when it is as high as 35%. But I don't really pay attention to percentages, unless I need to troubleshoot... and even then I wouldn't worry much about them unless they are completely off... like 50% protein, 30% fat, 20% carbohydrate.

[JaxMama]

Re: Another veggie intake question

Just what I was thinking, NOT2, I was just building my menu for the rest of the day and was adding my carbs from veggies and then was going to add the protein.

Atkinsgal- yes I have definetly thought that my body is fighting me. If it is then I will have to starve myself and work out non stop to get below 140. It's not fun but I have lived that way before.
There is no reason for me to have as much cellulite as I have and my purpose for this way of life is to rid some of it and keep from becoming diabetic. The rest of my body is thin. I've transformed it before low carbing so there is no reason why it can't work this time. I am not willing to give up yet though.

Where to get more calories now??? Gonna have to be thru fatty dressings and oils....

Thanks for the menu it was great to review.

Hopefully this is my final question, for now, is it possible to build muscle mass eating more protein? I know that is dumb because I am pretty sure you can but did anyone else see more muscle on them after doing this wol for a while?


Jaxmama