Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

[cleochatra]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

LC Dave-- Calorie Counting is a tool, just as is exercise, minding carbs, drinking water... not every tool is necessarily utilized for success by everyone.

That's the beauty of our uniqueness!

Still, to ignore calorie counting might be hurting someone who needs to borrow this tool from time to time or on a daily basis.

It's definitely a YMMV kind of thing to use. Still, not sharing part of the secret to my success makes me feel like I'm not sharing everything that I feel people deserve to know about me.

So, for me, it's definitely Atkins and calorie counting.

For others, mebbe notsomuch.

*hip bump*

Make a beautiful day!

[DebbietheHugBug]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

LCDave - some things just can't be explained. Some people are very fortunate enough to have a great metabolism. When I was in my 30s, I had no problem at all losing weight.


Maybe she was never raised (like I was) that she had to finish everything on her plate when she was growing up. Some of us are victims of our parents sabotaging us thinking they were keeping us healthy, when in fact, they were teaching us how to become unhealthy adults. I have known some people who are thin all their lives. They don't eat everything on their plate because it's there. They eat until they don't feel hungry anymore and then stop. Even if it's 2 bites.

I am only speculating that your fiance probably has good habits and a great metabolism

[not2late]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Maybe she was never raised (like I was) that she had to finish everything on her plate when she was growing up. Some of us are victims of our parents sabotaging us thinking they were keeping us healthy, when in fact, they were teaching us how to become unhealthy adults. I have known some people who are thin all their lives. They don't eat everything on their plate because it's there. They eat until they don't feel hungry anymore and then stop. Even if it's 2 bites.

And this is why Dr. Atkins tells us to only eat the amount of food that satisfies our hunger. Using that advice combined with the appetite suppression of ketosis, we "self regulate" our eating--unless we force ourselves to eat more for whatever reason.

Many of us are chronic overeaters, that is part of the reason why we are fat. Many of us are chronic comfort eaters, too. IF we re-learn how to eat properly, then we will self-regulate without the use of tools. We all have that ability to self-regulate, it really is a matter of re-learning it by listening to our bodies.

Feeling "full" is a physical sensation, being "satisfied" is a mental sensation.

[2big4mysize]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Don't you hate that clean plate club. Not one kid inChina or Africa got less starving cause we cleaned our plates, butthe guilt we felt over those starving kids sur made us eat it.

It is the breaking of old eating habits that Atkinsis all about. give up the clean plate Dr Atkins teaches us how in DANDR with the eating 1/2 part but again too many folk see thefoods list and think they are in food heaven and just jump in thinking they are doing Atkins. they see unlimited and never read where Dr Atkins tells us that doesn;'t mean stuff ourselves with the food just use the amount we need to satisfy our hunger and stop. That is one of the reasons many of us tell newbies to read the book all the way and then go back and reread chapter 11 before they start so they learnhow to use those lists the way Dr Atkins intended them too.
An OWLer rung one just posted she had 1/2 a cup of sour cream in her dinner. We know she didn't read her book and understand what she was doing just from that one food posting cause we allread the book.
Too many of the super heavy weights start out eating inductionwith a menu and keep that menu all the way never understanding that as they got smaller their bodies got more effeicient at moving their smaller bodies and they don't burn as much fuel any more but by god cause that menu worked on week one it beter still be working on week 12 of thier extended induction! They never learn to listen to their hunger and feed only that. If you ask them they will tell you they are never hungry.It is painfel to see them posting I'm eating the exact same menu I was when i lost the 50 pounds I'm drinking my water taking my vits and doing my exercise. And folk who haven't read and understood DANDR will be in there telling them to take X and Y cause DR A recomended it in his stall busting chapter or in his vital nutriants book for stall busting. When all the "stalled" person needs to do is lower the food intake to match their smaller body's needs. Portion control not calorie control is the issue. because with calorie control they can still by subbing lower cal foods be overeating at meal times with even larger servings.

[sadie147]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

LC Dave-- Calorie Counting is a tool, just as is exercise, minding carbs, drinking water... not every tool is necessarily utilized for success by everyone.

That's the beauty of our uniqueness!

Still, to ignore calorie counting might be hurting someone who needs to borrow this tool from time to time or on a daily basis.

It's definitely a YMMV kind of thing to use. Still, not sharing part of the secret to my success makes me feel like I'm not sharing everything that I feel people deserve to know about me.

So, for me, it's definitely Atkins and calorie counting.

For others, mebbe notsomuch.

*hip bump*

Make a beautiful day!

I completely agree. Not everyone will need to do it..but for some of us (including myself) it's a tool we require. It's taught me the types of low carb foods that in maintenace I must limit due to their fat content/calorie content. Not being a huge lover of veggies, i have an issue overeating high fat/calorie proteins. Watching my calories, has trained me how much of certain things I need to put a limit on. I never needed to count calories in teh beginning, but needed to incorporate it to help me with my food choices and portion control. I figure I will be able to quit the calorie counting, but for now..it keeps me in line. This is a lifetime woe, and if counting calories for a few months or a year will help retrain me in my portion control and how to maintain this weight..then It's a tool i will use.

It may not be for everyone, just as not all eating programs are for everyone. We're all individual and some of us need to take slightly different paths to get to our final goal.

I think this is a great discussion

[cleochatra]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

I had to get a new driver's license today, and it's so nice to see this discussion keeps moving forward. To me, this is the best of what a support group can be: ideas coming together, positive discussion, and respect for other viewpoints.

I really think this is so very special.

I hear you, Debbie-- I have a man's metabolism, so I am very fortunate. And then again, not. High metabolism means something in the body is working harder. It also wears the body out faster.

So the quick weight losses I enjoy now will probably mean me ending up in an urn earlier with a placard that reads, "Does this make my ash look big?"

Megs -- amen! Still, even with eating only until satisfied, it's what we eat that can still help us or hurt us. Again, I could easily eat a cup of mayonnaise a day or 2 packages of bacon--just to satisfy appetite. The problem there then becomes eating so many calories that the weight loss either stops or is extremely sluggish. For people like me, counting calories has had to be a rule. It keeps me honest and keeps me losing.

sadie-- you have always been such an inspiration for me! Knowing that this is something you also use is wonderful! It is nice to see successful people using this technique who have made it to goal!

[not2late]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Megs -- amen! Still, even with eating only until satisfied, it's what we eat that can still help us or hurt us. Again, I could easily eat a cup of mayonnaise a day or 2 packages of bacon--just to satisfy appetite. The problem there then becomes eating so many calories that the weight loss either stops or is extremely sluggish. For people like me, counting calories has had to be a rule. It keeps me honest and keeps me losing.

Then you have to re-evaluate how you define "appetite", "satisfy", "full", and "hunger".

As I said upthread, I used to define "full" and "satisfied" as being able to feel the weight of my meal in my stomach. If I didn't get that physical sensation, I wasn't "full" nor "satisfied". Once I realized that "satisfaction" is a mental perception rather than a physical one, it was easier to self-regulate and control my eating without having to refer to the number of calories I've eaten.

[cleochatra]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Megs-- but that's just the problem. I do those things and can still register extremely high amounts of calories even when only eating to satisfy hunger. I was only eating to assuage hunger when I was using that cup of mayonnaise per day in my chicken salad and not breaking induction and still bringing in well over 1,000 excess calories than I needed per day.

Calorie counting makes the difference for people like me who can follow the rules and still not lose weight.

[not2late]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Megs-- but that's just the problem. I do those things and can still register extremely high amounts of calories even when only eating to satisfy hunger. I was only eating to assuage hunger when I was using that cup of mayonnaise per day in my chicken salad and not breaking induction and still bringing in well over 1,000 excess calories than I needed per day.

Calorie counting makes the difference for people like me who can follow the rules and still not lose weight.

But see Cleo, 1 cup of mayonnaise, is that a "normal" portion for 1 person for 1 meal? No, it isn't. So, you have to work on what "normal" portions are as well. Let's face it, part of the reason why we are fat is because we have really screwed up eating habits and behaviors.

We are so used to eating huge amounts of food that "normal" amounts are too small. You know as well as I that we get people asking the good old lettuce question: "Lettuce has almost no carbs, so why am I limited to eating only 3 cups?". Okay, so these people want to eat 20 net carbs of lettuce---that's a mound of lettuce around the size of Mt. Everest! There's no doubt in my mind some folks can eat that amount and feel almost "satisfied" with their meal.

If you closely analyze the Induction menu and the portion sizes, Dr. Atkins put a limited the amount of bulky foods you can eat---vegetables. Fiber filled foods take up space. If you eat the 1 cup of the vegetables along with the protein and fat, you should be "filled" up----if you are defining appetite by mental sensations. However, if you define appetite by physical sensations, then you'll eat more meat, drink more water until your stomach's stretch receptors are activated. In other words, you will only feel "satisfied" if your stomach is stretched to capacity.

In some regards, you'll be able to get away with that....to a point. Either you'll stall due to the excessive protein and fat you are consuming or when you begin to decrease your water consumption you'll discover you need to eat more in order to feel "satisfied". Yes, that's right: as you lose weight and become a smaller person your daily water requirement decreases too.

That's why re-learning these natural appetite cues is so important.

[cleochatra]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Megs-- You can say that, and it's wunnerful, but a lot of people don't think like you. Or we do and it doesn't matter.

Really, Dr Atkins is like, "Mayonnaise? Woohoo! Have some. Have a lot!" Lavish is the key word of the day. Luxurious. Fat glorious fat! And I love to eat mayo and butter!

So many, many people (trust me...there are a lot of us), get the mayonnaise out of the fridge and we fwoop spoonfuls of mayo into the salad. We don't count, because Dr A says not to worry about it. He says go fer it.

So we do. We go fer it.

We eat until no longer hungry. We find we're up so many calories.

So really it's more than just counting carbs. People can get fat using a stick of butter on their potroast, too. Calorie counting brings much-needed accountability to the table for those people (like me) who listen to our hunger signals but can still easily end up with too many calories in our diets.

People can get fat on Atkins and can stall on Atkins, even when following plan. I know this because I've seen it happen, and I've spoken with others. For people like us, who already do what you're suggesting, calorie counting is still a necessity.

So, we agree. But there are caveats to the agreement.

{{{megs}}}

[DebbietheHugBug]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Could the bottom line here be this..... that we are all trying to figure out that which works best for us?


Such as my case: I DO have to watch calories, I DO have to watch carbs and I DO have to watch portions. In my case, I HAVE to stop at satisfied, not full. No matter how many or how few calories I have consumed. If I am low on calories but I have stuffed myself, I won't lose. Sometimes I can go fairly high on calories but as long as I'm just "satisfied", I lose.

We are all different. This has been really interesting to find out what is working for everyone. I hope everyone on the board takes time to read this thread.... and share!

[BabyDreamer]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

I agree that calories have to matter, but it is also important to note that they shouldn't be a consideration at the first stages of the diet, IMHO. I mean, the first stages should really be focused on carb control, with calorie restriction coming once people realize how the plan works. Do you agree?

Den

Megs-- You can say that, and it's wunnerful, but a lot of people don't think like you. Or we do and it doesn't matter.

Really, Dr Atkins is like, "Mayonnaise? Woohoo! Have some. Have a lot!" Lavish is the key word of the day. Luxurious. Fat glorious fat! And I love to eat mayo and butter!

So many, many people (trust me...there are a lot of us), get the mayonnaise out of the fridge and we fwoop spoonfuls of mayo into the salad. We don't count, because Dr A says not to worry about it. He says go fer it.

So we do. We go fer it.

We eat until no longer hungry. We find we're up so many calories.

So really it's more than just counting carbs. People can get fat using a stick of butter on their potroast, too. Calorie counting brings much-needed accountability to the table for those people (like me) who listen to our hunger signals but can still easily end up with too many calories in our diets.

People can get fat on Atkins and can stall on Atkins, even when following plan. I know this because I've seen it happen, and I've spoken with others. For people like us, who already do what you're suggesting, calorie counting is still a necessity.

So, we agree. But there are caveats to the agreement.

{{{megs}}}

[cleochatra]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Baby Dreamer-- I agree, and have said so a few times (I know people are too busy to read through 10 pages of posts)... but... I also count calories on induction. Then again, I'm a seasoned veteran.

The newbies who start this way of eating should focus more on getting into ketosis than trying to go out of their way to adhere to 1200 calories per day. After there's a handle on eating, calories can be considered if it's a tool people choose to give a shot and after induction!

Anyone starting a re-induction could consider calories so long as they have an honest handle on what they're doing and want more bang for their induction buck.

I say that with extreme caution however.

It really depends on the circumstances.

[not2late]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Megs-- You can say that, and it's wunnerful, but a lot of people don't think like you. Or we do and it doesn't matter.

Really, Dr Atkins is like, "Mayonnaise? Woohoo! Have some. Have a lot!" Lavish is the key word of the day. Luxurious. Fat glorious fat! And I love to eat mayo and butter!

So many, many people (trust me...there are a lot of us), get the mayonnaise out of the fridge and we fwoop spoonfuls of mayo into the salad. We don't count, because Dr A says not to worry about it. He says go fer it.

So we do. We go fer it.

Not really, because you are limited with the carbs in that mayo. Mayo is made from oil and eggs and whatever else is added to it. Eggs have carbs. So that mayonnaise has carbs. So each tablespoon of that mayonnaise has carbs. And the carbs increase as the serving size increases.

As for measuring, you have to measure your foods. Dr. Atkins specifically addresses this in the "Carb Creep" section of the book:
" The numbers add up, especially if your "Tablespoon" is more like a quarter-cup splash".
So this goes back to what 2Big and every other mod has encouraged since I've been here: read the book.

We eat until no longer hungry. We find we're up so many calories.

Again, how do you define "hunger"? How do you define "satisfied"?

It's an interesting exercise to actually sit down with a pen and paper and describe what "hunger" means and what "satisfied" means.

What almost completely convinces me that your definition of "satisfied" is based on physical sensations is your example of the 1 cup mayo chicken salad. Most chicken salad recipes use 3 cups of cooked chicken and about 1/4 to 1/3 cup mayonnaise: that's about 1 1/2 tablespoons of mayo for every 1 cup of chicken. But to make this easier on my math skills, let's say you used 1 cup of mayo for 1 cup of chicken. Total volume of that chicken salad is 2 cups. If you used a 1/2 cup mayo and 1 cup chicken, total volume would be 1 1/2 cups. As the volume of the mayo decreases, the total volume of the chicken salad decreases. So is your hunger and satiety directly related to the volume of food you eat or is it more related to what your brain is telling you or is it a combo of both with your brain losing losing the battle for recognition?

So really it's more than just counting carbs. People can get fat using a stick of butter on their potroast, too. Calorie counting brings much-needed accountability to the table for those people (like me) who listen to our hunger signals but can still easily end up with too many calories in our diets.

Again, it goes back to how much of that buttered pot roast someone eats. If they eat an entire 2 pound pot roast by themselves, then they have to re-evaluate their appetite definitions.

About 5 months after I came to ADBB, someone asked what the "serving size for protein" was. 2Big said the Atkins Center people (pre-Dr. Atkins' death) told her it was 4-6 ounces per meal. I had been eating 2-3 ounces per meal at most. So I bumped it up when I read what 2Big said. I felt physically "fuller" after my meals. After a week or so of eating the 4-6 ounces, I stopped losing pounds and inches. So I went back to my 2-3 ounces. Guess what? I didn't feel "satisfied" because I didn't feel physically "full" without that extra one- 3 ounces. And that was my first "A-HA!" about appetite perception.

People can get fat on Atkins and can stall on Atkins, even when following plan. I know this because I've seen it happen, and I've spoken with others. For people like us, who already do what you're suggesting, calorie counting is still a necessity.

So, we agree. But there are caveats to the agreement.

{{{megs}}}

Yes and the people who tend to get fat on Atkins are the ones who don't learn to modify their eating behaviors. I read this all the time from OWLers, particularly the OWLers who have stayed on Induction for an extended period of time before moving to OWL. They continue to eat the same volume of food that they eat on Day 1 of Induction, completely ignoring Dr. Atkins' advice to adjust their food quantities and to follow Dr. Atkins' advice on how correct their over-eating behavior.

[BabyDreamer]

Re: Calories still matter, even on a low-carb plan

Good point! I think that returning people can be careful of calories.

Deb

Baby Dreamer-- I agree, and have said so a few times (I know people are too busy to read through 10 pages of posts)... but... I also count calories on induction. Then again, I'm a seasoned veteran.

The newbies who start this way of eating should focus more on getting into ketosis than trying to go out of their way to adhere to 1200 calories per day. After there's a handle on eating, calories can be considered if it's a tool people choose to give a shot and after induction!

Anyone starting a re-induction could consider calories so long as they have an honest handle on what they're doing and want more bang for their induction buck.

I say that with extreme caution however.

It really depends on the circumstances.